ZapBrannigan
If it ain’t a Boeing, I’m not going. No choice.
<--- Has "other" opinion.
Slowing from 250 in terminal area....
- Thread starter higney85
- Start date
tykrtr
Well-Known Member
At the outstations (ours at least) most airlines tend to go 250 until they have to slow down. One airline is usually an exception to the rule, and we know it, so ties go to the other guys. Sorry (airline that slows to 200kt 25 miles out), you're number last. If center sticks you up high and you need to get down, most of us approach controllers don't mind if you slow to 250 while level at 11 or 15 or whatever while you're waiting for lower. I'll usually tell people if I have to leave them higher for crossing traffic that speed is their discretion.
When I was flying for people who were paying for the gas (C501s--insert 250kt joke here), I tried not to push the money levers up too far when level at lower altitudes. In the TRACON I'll usually expect the same from others. The military seems to be the worst about doing 250 on downwind, then slowing to 140 on final. Bottom line: If you're doing 250 on downwind, we'll usually put you far enough behind the other traffic that 250 will work until we slow you down. If you like 5-7 extra miles on downwind to slow down, great. If not, 210 doesn't hurt too much and allows you to be consistent when turning behind other traffic.
When I was flying for people who were paying for the gas (C501s--insert 250kt joke here), I tried not to push the money levers up too far when level at lower altitudes. In the TRACON I'll usually expect the same from others. The military seems to be the worst about doing 250 on downwind, then slowing to 140 on final. Bottom line: If you're doing 250 on downwind, we'll usually put you far enough behind the other traffic that 250 will work until we slow you down. If you like 5-7 extra miles on downwind to slow down, great. If not, 210 doesn't hurt too much and allows you to be consistent when turning behind other traffic.
Depends on the aircraft, performance-wise, but generally speaking for fighters, we try to maintain 250 on radar downwind. 210 is a little slow for some jets unless dirty, lets you have to be throttled way back, or unless it's just after rolling out closed downwind post-break and prior to the 180. The 117 liked to be faster than 250 just for the stable platform, but I'd let ATC know as early as possible for their own planning purposes, and that seemed to work out for them.
tykrtr
Well-Known Member
Sorry Mike, I didn't mean to imply that all military types are involved, it's not the fighter types that tend to slow to less than 140 on final. You're pretty consistent. Its the trainers mostly that seem to have the widest speed variations. Personally, I wish ATC had the leeway to exempt people from the 250 knot rule. As it is, if you tell us you need more than 250, It's approved. Feel free to come visit in your 117 any time!
I guess we just expect consistency. If you're in an RJ or Lear doing 250 on downwind, we expect that. When you get a new heading (base for example), and slow to 160, you're now 8 miles behind the plane you were following, and the next guy has to slow down for you. Back to the awareness factor; Why do 250 away from the airport only to slow to 160 or less when you get a heading back toward it?
I guess we just expect consistency. If you're in an RJ or Lear doing 250 on downwind, we expect that. When you get a new heading (base for example), and slow to 160, you're now 8 miles behind the plane you were following, and the next guy has to slow down for you. Back to the awareness factor; Why do 250 away from the airport only to slow to 160 or less when you get a heading back toward it?
Oh no, no inconsistency implied or taken that way....I was just stating what I did because I've caused my own sequencing work for ATC by accident in the times I've forgotten to give them a courtesy heads-up, and it's only resolved when they ask me to slow and I'm unable to. By that time, I've created work for them and I kick myself for having done that. Wish I could swing by in the 117, but they're all in the Nevada junkyard now!
Fully agree!
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
Maybe they have to slow to drop the gear or flaps. If you're in the pattern going downwind isn't really going away from the airport because it is something you have to do regardless, I don't see any reason to slow just because I am going "away" from the airport when I would have to fly the exact same profile if I was flying more slowly.