Slowing from 250 in terminal area....

higney85

higney85

Property of Scheduling
Honest question that I keep running across differing "opinions" on. When operating in the terminal area below 10K at what point are we expected to slow from 250? I have always been using slowing when either assigned slower, cleared for approach, exiting class B, or appropriate speed reduction for airspace- that's it for me. I have read the AIM, know the airspace FAR's, and asked the controllers in MEM and I feel I am on the same "page" but cannot find anything definitive when dealing with CA's who feel they know better than everyone else. When is it expected? Some guys like to start slowing to 200 or downwind, others base, and I always find ATC asking us our speed when in class B and busy....


Thoughts...
 
I always thought you go 250 until assigned something else, kinda an unwritten rule. Although if I can see we are #1 or 2 on a high downwind on a Sat morning in CLT for example I'll slow up there so I can dive down.

Pretty much you know when you can go your own speed when they don't assign you one...IMO at least.
 
250 until assigned otherwise, or if airspeed requirements require a reduction in airspeed.

Such as, descending out of the flight levels down to 3,000. At 11,000, begin the speed reduction and continue the descent at 250kts. As you're approaching 4NM / 2500ft AGL, begin the speed reduction again to 200, then as needed for your approach set up.

At least that's how I rolled going into any Class C or D field. Class B, well. . .they tell us what to do or we follow the STAR to the letter.
 
I always slow passing the airport on the downwind vector unless it's clear that i'm in a conga line. No point in going fast in the wrong direction.
 
What everyone else has said. Maintained 250 until told otherwise, required, or because I sensed something coming (like getting slam dunked, I liked to be near 200 before that happened so I can rock more flaps if I needed em).
 
ZapBrannigan said:
I always slow passing the airport on the downwind vector unless it's clear that i'm in a conga line. No point in going fast in the wrong direction.
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I'm with you. I'll do 250 going towards the airport or when at a hub airport...But at those big airports usually you'll get assigned speeds on the arrival.

But if it's your run of the mill outstation, once I get past the airport I slow to 180-200. Why get further from the airport than needed and add time to the flight unnecessarily?

I don't know any reg or aim that states controllers expect us to do 250 all the time under 10k unless there is some sort of coordination.
 
Nope. Same thing on departure. I won't exceed about 200 knots until i'm headed in the right direction. Been doing it this way for years. The nice thing about doing it in a Learjet is that I can usually exit the top of their airspace and get pointed in the right direction by center much faster that way.
 
Not sure why everyone gets it on here but some CA's I fly with feel they can do it because they say "I know what ATC wants". Drives me friggin nuts...
 
Ex. Going into MEM ILS 27, I'll try to hold 240 until COVIM. Anything I can do to get in faster and keep traffic from slowing. I hate it when guys are 10 out and slow down too much. Next thing you'll hear is speed reductions down the line which then throws off the parallels and next thing you know the sort is behind 30 minutes and then I don't get home as early as I was hoping.
 
higney85 said:
Not sure why everyone gets it on here but some CA's I fly with feel they can do it because they say "I know what ATC wants". Drives me friggin nuts...
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I wouldn't let it bug you. Just remember that you are ATC's customer. Not the other way around. Fly your airplane safely and efficiently and if they don't like it (shrug) I guess they'll tell you.

Same thing with the Captains. Fly the airplane safely, as per the company SOP, and if they don't like it tell them to take it up with Pro-standards.
 
BajtheJino said:
...Next thing you'll hear is speed reductions down the line which then throws off the parallels and next thing you know the sort is behind 30 minutes and then I don't get home as early as I was hoping.
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Yeah, sorry about the Baron in front of you that can only do 180. I got everything pushed all the way forward. And trust me, I can keep the speed up until a 2.5 miles final, then I have to slow down.
 
BajtheJino said:
Ex. Going into MEM ILS 27, I'll try to hold 240 until COVIM. Anything I can do to get in faster and keep traffic from slowing. I hate it when guys are 10 out and slow down too much. Next thing you'll hear is speed reductions down the line which then throws off the parallels and next thing you know the sort is behind 30 minutes and then I don't get home as early as I was hoping.
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Hate to say it but you are up against the "shadow program" for landings on 27- especially if 18L is in use. 27 is the overflow runway anyway. Doesn't matter since the runway is closed (I think) from March 1- Dec 1.

My source on that one is my father in law who is in the MEM tower/approach.... Very interesting how that whole operation works now...
 
I was told by PHL departure controllers that even if you are going the "wrong way" climbing at 200 knots really screws them up, they expect everyone to accel to 250 ASAP. This goes for other large airports too, look at the notes on the SIDs for ATL & CLT for example (just off the top of my head). Also just because you are are downwind slowing to 180-200 means everyone behind you is now slowing. Hey I get block or better but a little courtesy goes a long way IMO.
 
wheelsup said:
I was told by PHL departure controllers that even if you are going the "wrong way" climbing at 200 knots really screws them up, they expect everyone to accel to 250 ASAP. This goes for other large airports too, look at the notes on the SIDs for ATL & CLT for example (just off the top of my head). Also just because you are are downwind slowing to 180-200 means everyone behind you is now slowing. Hey I get block or better but a little courtesy goes a long way IMO.
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EWR has/had a note in our Jepps to the effect that "NY departure requests best climb to get on course as soon as possible." Not every airport is the same and those that need speeds usually clearly state it in their SID.

So if I slow to 180-200 on downwind at.....ALB,BTV,CMH,DAY,GRK,GRR,GSO,GPT,ISP, for instance I'm really slowing the arrival flow?! I'm listing these as an example of the outstation airports I'm thinking of. I can safely say that I usually keep pretty good situational awareness and would notice if I had someone trailing me on an arrival. I just don't think they stack planes up on arrivals at these airports like you think.

Actually...ever have to follow the guy on downwind who maybe was doing 250 to an 8 mile final...The pattern has turned into a bomber pattern. Where's the courtesy there?
 
braunpilot said:
Yeah, sorry about the Baron in front of you that can only do 180. I got everything pushed all the way forward. And trust me, I can keep the speed up until a 2.5 miles final, then I have to slow down.
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No, youre not the problem. Some nights the App. speed for the ATR is down to 90 knots. Its the guys that slow to 90 knots 10 out that can be the problem.


27 is the overflow runway anyway
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Just depends on what time of night it is I think.
 
Personally I go as fast as makes sense for the situation in the plane I'm flying, and let ATC figure out the rest. That's basically our respective job description anyways.

Of course if whoever I'm flying with knows better from having been there before, or whatever... I listen :)
 
Higney - the CA's I flew with, when coming in on the arrivals would tell me to slow, or slow themselves, once they'd completed (or sometimes even during) the turn from the 45 to the downwind, reasoning that they don't want to fly away from the airport at 250. Personally, I'd keep 250 as long as practicable/legal. Take my advice with a grain of salt though, only been doin this for a year and 3 months man :)
 
Baronman said:
So if I slow to 180-200 on downwind at.....ALB,BTV,CMH,DAY,GRK,GRR,GSO,GPT,ISP, for instance I'm really slowing the arrival flow?!
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You know the answer to that and I don't see how those smaller airports reflect the OP's question about slowing in Class B airspace.
 
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