Slowing from 250 in terminal area....

cencal83406 said:
Higney - the CA's I flew with, when coming in on the arrivals would tell me to slow, or slow themselves, once they'd completed (or sometimes even during) the turn from the 45 to the downwind, reasoning that they don't want to fly away from the airport at 250. Personally, I'd keep 250 as long as practicable/legal. Take my advice with a grain of salt though, only been doin this for a year and 3 months man :)
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I can tell ya right now, if you're doing 250 kts passing the airport with some of the check airmen on the JS, you're gonna get a tongue lashing on the ground. I know I did on my type ride, but since I didn't bust a company SOP or a reg, I defended it as "technique," so it's not like he could really ding me on it. Just ticked me off since I knew there were guys behind me and a gap in front of me.

In a normal situation, I'll keep 250 until passing the airport on the downwind like a lot of guys have mentioned. If I'm looking at a straight in, I'll start slowing to 200 when I'm 10 miles from the FAF (or 13-15 miles from the runway on a visual).
 
I pretty much agree with everyone here and each situation is slightly different. At small airports if I'm the only one in the pattern I'll slow down on downwind if I know I'm getting the visual. A lot of places though if they are vectoring you for the approach will take you out past the marker even if it's visual. In that case I'll keep 250 until I take the base turn and I'll slow down nicely to hit 200 at the marker for the class d airspace if there is one. On departure from the small places I'll climb slower if I'm going the wrong direction. At the bigger aiports I do 250 until told otherwise or cleared for the visual. It would always annoy the heck out of me when guys would slow down on their own and then you hear the controller saying..."airliner 123, reduce your speed 20 knots...overtaking preceding traffic" If atc has a pattern going they are doing all of their planning based on the speeds they are assinging the planes in their pattern....just my 2 cents.
 
Oceanic815Pilot said:
I pretty much agree with everyone here and each situation is slightly different. At small airports if I'm the only one in the pattern I'll slow down on downwind if I know I'm getting the visual. A lot of places though if they are vectoring you for the approach will take you out past the marker even if it's visual. In that case I'll keep 250 until I take the base turn and I'll slow down nicely to hit 200 at the marker for the class d airspace if there is one. On departure from the small places I'll climb slower if I'm going the wrong direction. At the bigger aiports I do 250 until told otherwise or cleared for the visual. It would always annoy the heck out of me when guys would slow down on their own and then you hear the controller saying..."airliner 123, reduce your speed 20 knots...overtaking preceding traffic" If atc has a pattern going they are doing all of their planning based on the speeds they are assinging the planes in their pattern....just my 2 cents.
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Appears this is your first post. . .

Just want to say welcome to Jetcareers, enjoy your stay.
 
surreal1221 said:
250 until assigned otherwise, or if airspeed requirements require a reduction in airspeed.

Such as, descending out of the flight levels down to 3,000. At 11,000, begin the speed reduction and continue the descent at 250kts. As you're approaching 4NM / 2500ft AGL, begin the speed reduction again to 200, then as needed for your approach set up.

At least that's how I rolled going into any Class C or D field. Class B, well. . .they tell us what to do or we follow the STAR to the letter.
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:yeahthat: Go fast until the airspace regs require 200 kts. How I understand it anyway.
ZapBrannigan said:
Nope. Same thing on departure. I won't exceed about 200 knots until i'm headed in the right direction. Been doing it this way for years. The nice thing about doing it in a Learjet is that I can usually exit the top of their airspace and get pointed in the right direction by center much faster that way.
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:yeahthat: Drives me nuts when guys accelerate to 250 going west when our destination is to the east.
 
AMH said:
:yeahthat: Go fast until the airspace regs require 200 kts. How I understand it anyway.



:yeahthat: Drives me nuts when guys accelerate to 250 going west when our destination is to the east.
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:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:
 
I try to keep it at 210-220 to the marker. My airplane can't go 250kias. Also, the 200kt thing hardly ever applies unless youre below 2500AGL. Many people forget that even in Class C it's just 2500AGL / 4nm
 
cencal83406 said:
Except when the departure at the airport calls for 250 for 3rd segment. *Ehem ATL, CVG* lol.
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I sincerely doubt anyone is questioning you for following a charted procedure. The situation to which we are referring is a clear lack of situational awareness.
 
ZapBrannigan said:
I sincerely doubt anyone is questioning you for following a charted procedure. The situation to which we are referring is a clear lack of situational awareness.
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I know :) lol - well I've always found ATL to be funny procedure-wise. No other airports I've flown to seem to care what our profile says but if you're slow in ATL they whine and moan at you. There's nothing saying 250 has to be maintained, it's one of those local things they do.
 
cencal83406 said:
I know :) lol - well I've always found ATL to be funny procedure-wise. No other airports I've flown to seem to care what our profile says but if you're slow in ATL they whine and moan at you. There's nothing saying 250 has to be maintained, it's one of those local things they do.
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It might have something to do with it being the world's busiest airport. :hiya:
 
cencal83406 said:
I know :) lol - well I've always found ATL to be funny procedure-wise. No other airports I've flown to seem to care what our profile says but if you're slow in ATL they whine and moan at you. There's nothing saying 250 has to be maintained, it's one of those local things they do.
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I wouldn't call it whining and moaning. I'd call it trying to land as many aircraft per hour at the busiest, most efficient airport in the World. If everyone slows and does what they want then someone is going to get run over. Happens with the B752's all the time. They slow 10 nm from the downwind and create a traffic jam as all the arrivals behind them have to slow for separation and wake issues. If you need to slow, just ask and 99 out of 100 times I won't have a problem with it. Do it on your own, I am going to have an opertional error because, while working the 10 arrivals on the downwind side of the airport I didn't recognize you slowing. The pilot...nothing will happen, me...I'll lose my ticket.
 
ATLTRACON said:
I wouldn't call it whining and moaning. I'd call it trying to land as many aircraft per hour at the busiest, most efficient airport in the World. If everyone slows and does what they want then someone is going to get run over. Happens with the B752's all the time. They slow 10 nm from the downwind and create a traffic jam as all the arrivals behind them have to slow for separation and wake issues. If you need to slow, just ask and 99 out of 100 times I won't have a problem with it. Do it on your own, I am going to have an opertional error because, while working the 10 arrivals on the downwind side of the airport I didn't recognize you slowing. The pilot...nothing will happen, me...I'll lose my ticket.
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Dangit you weren't supposed to read it =-P I'm just bein' a jerk. I don't think I've had the controllers ask if I was accelerating to 250 but once....

I wish y'all wouldn't slow us up so far out sometimes. :)

All in all, good times, and thanks for all of your hard work in your windowless building somewhere.
 
AMH said:
:yeahthat: Drives me nuts when guys accelerate to 250 going west when our destination is to the east.
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Velocipede said:
:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:
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Sometimes you may be in a situation where you won't get higher until you hit the lateral boundaries of a specific controller's airspace. Case in point, PBI departures. You take off on 9L, climb on runway heading to 7,000, and stay there until you're damn near Freeport. You ain't getting higher until you're outside the lateral boundaries of PBI airspace. Although it isn't quite a case of going 250 knots in the wrong direction, you aren't making progress toward a due north or due south destination. In that case, I'm going to 250 in order to get to that magic boundary as quickly as possible.
 
TFaudree_ERAU said:
Sometimes you may be in a situation where you won't get higher until you hit the lateral boundaries of a specific controller's airspace. Case in point, PBI departures. You take off on 9L, climb on runway heading to 7,000, and stay there until you're damn near Freeport. You ain't getting higher until you're outside the lateral boundaries of PBI airspace. Although it isn't quite a case of going 250 knots in the wrong direction, you aren't making progress toward a due north or due south destination. In that case, I'm going to 250 in order to get to that magic boundary as quickly as possible.
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That makes perfectly good sense but Zap covered it:

ZapBrannigan said:
I sincerely doubt anyone is questioning you for following a charted procedure. The situation to which we are referring is a clear lack of situational awareness.
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I'm mainly concerned with airports without departures. When altitude is being wasted to make headway in the wrong direction. Kills me.
 
ATLTRACON said:
I wouldn't call it whining and moaning. I'd call it trying to land as many aircraft per hour at the busiest, most efficient airport in the World. If everyone slows and does what they want then someone is going to get run over. Happens with the B752's all the time. They slow 10 nm from the downwind and create a traffic jam as all the arrivals behind them have to slow for separation and wake issues. If you need to slow, just ask and 99 out of 100 times I won't have a problem with it. Do it on your own, I am going to have an opertional error because, while working the 10 arrivals on the downwind side of the airport I didn't recognize you slowing. The pilot...nothing will happen, me...I'll lose my ticket.
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Question on the opposite problem. If someone has an exemption to 91.117d...aircraft ops require higher than 250 below 10k, does that cause a problem for you? In the 117, standard jet penetration was 300 for aircraft limitation; is that any easier to manage for ATC? Not really talking with center, but more of the terminal area with RAPCON/TRACON?
 
MikeD said:
Question on the opposite problem. If someone has an exemption to 91.117d...aircraft ops require higher than 250 below 10k, does that cause a problem for you? In the 117, standard jet penetration was 300 for aircraft limitation; is that any easier to manage for ATC? Not really talking with center, but more of the terminal area with RAPCON/TRACON?
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As a controller that works F16,s and Cessnas together in the pattern, I stay out of the cockpit unless I truly need to alter the speed. I adjust for the most efficient sequence based on how everyone is flying. With F16,s recovering you cannot have someone doing 90 kts on a 10 mile final. Slow guys are kept close to the field so we can tuck them in. Fast guys are sequenced farther out and rarely told to slow. If the fighters want to play in the pattern, its usually a couple closed patterns then little guys get the airport for a few then back to the fighters etc. Carriers are sequenced as they arrive with minimal delays. I find if pilots fly consistent I have the best efficiency.
 
ZapBrannigan said:
Did you forget that you are paid by the hour?
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I'm 25 hours under guarantee - I'd have to taxi the airplane between airports to make that up and get paid extra. So in essence, I am working "for free" if based on my line award I fly longer but don't get from 50 to 75.1 hours.
 
I am still doing 250 until otherwise assigned, cleared for an approach, or clearly the only guy out there (happens in MEM off push times). Regs and controllers agree, unfortunately some others have "other" opinions.

Yes, there are some check airman that harp on slowing the speed- I have had the guy in my seat that loves to harp when you pass the field @ 250 and asked him where it is written to arbitrarily slow and he couldn't produce anything.
 
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