Skybus on front page of Chicago Tribune
- Thread starter WindyCityPilot
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What was Southwest's pay compared to everyone else when they started? That's a true comparison and one that would apply, unlike what is written above.
There's a big difference here. Pinnacles work rules are availible for anyone to find. Anyone with sense knew that if Skybus wouldn't tell you the work rules, it was becasue there weren't going to be any.
You could have gone to any number of regionals for better work rules and similiar (and in cases better) pay. The Skybus operating model won't work with higher pay. The danger here is that it puts downward pressure on industry pay, you're hurting everyone else's pay scale just so you could fly an Airbus instead of a CRJ.
Two words: Regional Jet.
So you think of your job as being the Wal Mart of airlines. So you figure you can be the min wage Wal Mart worker of airlines... and you think Wal Mart workers should be labled "professionals?"
The problem people are having here is that you were willing to start off at that pay period. This wasn't a pay level of "help us start out." This was a pay level of "severely undercut everyone else."
JDMcFly
New Member
Don't forget that at VA, when you upgrade you go to 'Year 1' Captain rate, whereas nearly everywhere else you just sidestep to the Captain pay.
Edit: Didn't see that BobDDuck already said that *doh*.
tonyw
Well-Known Member
You know, organizations like Skybus are what makes folks like me stay away from the industry.
If there are organizations out there who are hiring people and driving wages down by the rates they pay, it makes it impossible for me to cost justify the switch.
As it is, it would take me five years and an upgrade to get back to where I am now, and that's assuming I get no raises or promotions over the next five years. That assumption is false, of course.
Then you get a new player who drives wages down and it's now going to be a longer time to get back to where I am.
I'm not willing to do that just to have a business card that says airline pilot.
If there are organizations out there who are hiring people and driving wages down by the rates they pay, it makes it impossible for me to cost justify the switch.
As it is, it would take me five years and an upgrade to get back to where I am now, and that's assuming I get no raises or promotions over the next five years. That assumption is false, of course.
Then you get a new player who drives wages down and it's now going to be a longer time to get back to where I am.
I'm not willing to do that just to have a business card that says airline pilot.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Yeah, you've really got your priorities straight, Don. Skybus pilots are a-ok with you, but those rascally PFTers are evil! 
scramjet
Well-Known Member
I'm only a "semi-insider" to this industry, but I was initially highly disgusted with Skybus and its pilot group- I felt it meant many bad things to me as an aspiring pilot. Quite honestly, I still am, but I am very supportive of their attempt to unionize. I only hope that they make full use of it and not use a union to hide behind in an attempt to justify their pay and other negative aspects of their working conditions.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"but those rascally PFTers are evil!"
PFT is one thing. Gulfstream style PJF, which is how PCL128 entered the biz, is something else. Entering this industry via Gulfstream Academy where you pay for a job is a bad idea and brings down the career. I'd never be proud to have "Gulfstream 1900 F/O" in my sig line. But that's just me, whatever floats your boat PCL....
"Don. Skybus pilots are a-ok with you"
I'm not trying to make discussing Skybus personal. I simply think it would be sad if the one Skybus pilot with the balls to post here gets shouted down. That does nothing to promote a fair discussion of the issues. Is that a good idea?
PFT is one thing. Gulfstream style PJF, which is how PCL128 entered the biz, is something else. Entering this industry via Gulfstream Academy where you pay for a job is a bad idea and brings down the career. I'd never be proud to have "Gulfstream 1900 F/O" in my sig line. But that's just me, whatever floats your boat PCL....
"Don. Skybus pilots are a-ok with you"
I'm not trying to make discussing Skybus personal. I simply think it would be sad if the one Skybus pilot with the balls to post here gets shouted down. That does nothing to promote a fair discussion of the issues. Is that a good idea?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
So kids who don't know better giving a small 1900 operator in Florida some money to fly turboprops around is "bringing down the career," but experienced pilots who should know better agreeing to work for Skybus for one third of the going rate (while delivering water from Costco, mind you) is getting a pass from you? Sorry Don, but that's absurd. You need to reexamine your priorities. Both are bad things, but Skybus is far more damaging to this industry than PFJ could ever be.
nah....i have to disagree (IMO)...learning what i've learned in the past 5 years or so, i think both are just as damaging. the difference is, you can't unionize PFJ, you can't change PFJ style jobs, they are what they are, the only way to combat PFJ is to not take the bait, make the company pay for that pilot. However, you can unionize a new airline's pilot group and support the rise of currently low ball standards, thereby changing the effects to the industry as quickly as possible.
I think if Skybus unionizes and the company doesn't tank....then it'll be pretty similar to when SWA started operations...if they last, 15 years from now, this will just be another old story and some newer regional or low cost company will be the flavor of everyones disgust.
I think if Skybus unionizes and the company doesn't tank....then it'll be pretty similar to when SWA started operations...if they last, 15 years from now, this will just be another old story and some newer regional or low cost company will be the flavor of everyones disgust.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
As someone who has been directly involved with contract negotiations and union organizing, I disagree. PFT isn't even on the map. Honestly, ALPA couldn't care less. It doesn't affect our bargaining leverage at all. Non-union carriers that undercut union wages are the biggest threat to our profession, however, and they have already negatively affected our wages, work rules, and retirement.
ljg
Well-Known Member
<edited> You flew 1900's for 33% payrates of Lakes, CJC, etc. You could've easily done research on your decision when you were a "kid" and decided to help lower the industry bar by paying to fly for a shameless joke of an airline. You can continue to parade around this internet forum like the town bully and bust people's chops on whatever you want, I don't really care because I can't take you seriously when you harass other people. However, when you're outright disrespectful to a guy showing a unique viewpoint to the rest of us, you just come off looking like a fool. Sorry
.I fail to see the massive difference here.
At what point does it change? Would you consider someone flying a large jet for free to be ok? after all... they aren't PFT. What about $1 an hour block time? What about $10?
The lower pay essentially *IS* paying. And the difference here seems larger to me than the pay difference between giving money to fly a 1900 vs what 1900 f/o pay is normally.
I think both things are bad and degrading to the industry, and don't see how you can single one out and not the other.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
I disagree and feel ALPA should start thinking about it. Those ideals that "well, it's just a job, and I'm not really hurting the profession" don't just come out of nowhere. They get developed and nurtured in the PFT/PFJ environment. ALPA obviously saw it as an issue in the past. Most regional airlines now don't require you to pay for your training as they once did. GIA still does, but they're not ALPA. If the CAs there were to unionize (I don't count on the FOs to enter the picture since they're not there very long), I'm betting that place would be different.
PFT DOES impact the wages and benefits. How much does a GIA FO make again? They're still a 121 carrier. How can we expect unionized carriers like Commutair and Big Sky to up their pay when their management can say "Heck. I can get people to pay ME to work here?" You can bet if someone started a carrier with regional jets and ran it like GIA wages and work rules across the board would either stagnate or fall lower b/c management would have something to point to. Saying that it doesn't matter is just naive IMO.
skybuspilot
Well-Known Member
133 pilots work for Skybus. They are not stopping the thousands of pilots that work for other airlines from making a living. Heck we don't even dent your passenger market share. We are trying to make things better, and you attack us for it.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
ALPA isn't concerned with it because it never affects our bargaining leverage. Never once in any carrier's negotiations have management come to the table and mentioned PFT as a reason that wages should remain low. On the other hand, in every single regional negotiations, management comes to the table and immediately begins talking about how the Mesa/GoJet/Lynx/etc.... pilots are accepting much lower rates, so "we have to accept similar wages to be competitive." That is what is affecting bargaining leverage, not PFT. PFT never has, and I'd venture to say that it never will. Not that I support PFT. I think it needs to stop, and I tell everyone not to make the same mistake I did, but the focus that so many people on this board have on PFT is misplaced. There are much bigger fish to fry. PFT is small potatoes compared to GoJet, Skybus, cabatoge, etc...
That happened naturally as a result of market conditions. Notice that your PCL contract doesn't prohibit PFT. The company could technically start it up again at any time they want. ALPA never wasted bargaining leverage on eliminating it, because it simply isn't an important factor.
Newsflash: GIA is unionized. They were even unionized way back when I worked there.
Kell, you're usually better researched than this. The pilots at GIA have the industry-leading small turboprop contract. Go compare their rates to Great Lakes and Commutair over at APC. Not just rates, but they have trip and duty rigs that the PCL pilots wish they had. PFT obviously didn't stop GIA from getting a good contract. In fact, the GIA pilots should be bitching that the Great Lakes pilots are dragging them down.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Kell, you're usually better researched than this. The pilots at GIA have the industry-leading small turboprop contract. Go compare their rates to Great Lakes and Commutair over at APC. Not just rates, but they have trip and duty rigs that the PCL pilots wish they had. PFT obviously didn't stop GIA from getting a good contract. In fact, the GIA pilots should be bitching that the Great Lakes pilots are dragging them down.
But Great Lakes doesn't have to pay $29,900 to get the job. That means that FOs are making a whopping -$25,400 while they're there (based off GIA's own website and 250 hours flown there). At least the Great Lakes guy making $2 an hour less has a positive balance. Now, I'll give you that Gulfstream CAs do well compared to Great Lakes and Commutair, but that doesn't excuse the fact that Gulfstream FOs making less than nothing.
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