Sketchy September

[Autothrust Blue]

Ahh, the classic response of everyone who wants to limit our rights and take away our access to resources: 9/11!!!!!!!

Shucks, I've gone almost a year without someone waving that one in my face. Well, okay, not a year, I did my recurrent security module on time this quarter, but that's to be expected in that context.

This, however, is a garbage argument:

Yea lets see if you'll have the same opinion if another 911 were to happen.



Yes I'm in the military, yes I am tax payer as we'll. Yes I saw people jump out of the towers and land on the street on 911. Oh yea before I forget... Yes I am a pilot.

If you live in that sort of fear, they have won.

I'm just saying.

I grew up in the shadow of 9/11, and the only thing that I know for certain is that I am very tired of the argument that I should be afraid all the time. I'm not. You shouldn't be either. It's a terrible way to live, and it winds up destroying certain parts of the American way of life that we really should not do without.

Uhh, no. I don't have to accept whatever the government. The implication is that if I don't, a nebulous force of international criminals and religious zealots will come and kill me, is ridiculous. There are many, many, many more sketchy bad things that are likely more threatening than terrorism in America.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-emotion

I'm personally done having apologists for a big military tell me that if I don't bend over and accept whatever they want then we will get attacked again and I should be terrified of the consequences. "WE DON'T WANT THE NEXT SMOKING GUN TO BE A MUSHROOM CLOUD!" I think we all saw how that played out. It's all BS, if Uncle Sam is going to jam TCAS, ADS-B, or GPS, they better damn well have a good reason for it and we ought to be able to find out why. As for your ludicrous point that if I don't comply bad things will happen, that's not even statistically true.

Over twice as many veterans kill themselves every year than total people who died in 9/11. In fact, in 2012, 6500 vets killed themselves - this is about the same as the total amount of American military personnel killed in the Global War on Terror. It's also over two times the casualty rate on 9/11. Indeed, the chance of being killed on 9-11 was only just over 1 in 100,000 people. Personally, I'd take those odds if it meant i didn't have to pay for the Iraq war for the rest of my natural life, or even if Halliburton needs their stimulus plan it meant I didn't have to get groped publicly at every airport in the country.

"Ohhh, but the economic costs! They're so great!" True - this article from 2011 from the suggests that it could have cost as much as $3.3 trillion all told. When you dive into the statistics a little bit though, one thing stands out - nearly a trillion dollars went into the Iraq war - which, incidentally, was simply justified by 9-11 and actually had nothing to do with it. Indeed, I imagine the ISIS related cluster going on in Iraq right now probably wouldn't have happened if we weren't there. In comparison, the great recession cost about 6 times as much. Go figure.

-clap clap clap clap-

I mean, I can't really add on to that at all.

I'm not a tin foil hat kind of guy, but it makes you wonder what they are exactly up to, and why they don't want us to know about it. I'd be a little nervous going through that area at night or IMC. At least during the day you might have a chance to avoid whatever they might send your way.

I'm more worried about the perfect VFR day, since that's when midairs happen.

 

[ppragman]

Veterans dude, not active duty military personnel. Even so, my point remains. If you want to, you can read the US government funded study yourself (warning, PDF). Veterans kill themselves at a rate of around 22 per day. That's a fact. Even if you restrict yourself to current, active duty personnel the numbers are not great - in fact, in 2012, active duty suicide deaths outpaced combat deaths in Afghanistan. So...not really that great of a statistic either. Either way, this is somewhat off the beaten path of the discussion we were having, which was that 9/11 cannot and should not be a justification for the military to do whatever the hell they want.

9/11 was a watershed moment in this country, but good god, it happened almost 14 years ago now. Can we stop using it as justification to let the government do whatever the hell they want with a blank check and no accountability? We cannot run out and give unrestrained or unchecked power to people just because something is marginally scary. Honestly, statistically speaking, terrorism is not a threat (nor has it ever really been a threat) in this country to the average person. You're much more likely to die of heatstroke. On average, 675 people a year die of heatstroke. So, in the 14 years since 9/11, that's around 9,000 people, which about three times as many people died on 9/11. Pretty scary, we'd better give the EPA infinite power to regulate greenhouse gas emissions so the planet doesn't get any hotter, there should be a ESA (Environmental Security Agent) in every house and at every gas station to make sure you drive efficiently and turn off lights when you leave (that's sarcasm if you couldn't tell). If that doesn't scare you enough, weather in general kills about 2,000 people a year, that's a 9/11 every 18 months. More people die of distracted driving every year than died on 9/11. The obvious solution? Give the DOT infinite power to regulate every aspect of the driving experience - that will prevent these problems.

You're wildly more likely to be killed for a wide variety of silly mundane reasons than anything terror-related. We cannot (and frankly should not) just let people with political power have their way because some jackass could decide to kill some of us. Fear based disruption in our lives is ultimately what the terrorists want. That's what terrorism is - someone spreading fear to attain a political goal, and ultimately, it's basically impossible to prevent all acts of it without becoming some dystopian state. By modifying our behavior, we're already letting those guys win. I am significantly less free than I was on September 10th, 2001 in this country. On 9/10, I could go to the airport and not be molested. If I had been flying for a living at the time, I could have ridden in the JS without CASS. There wasn't a program (at least that we know of) to wiretap Americans without a warrant. There was no such thing as "enhanced interrogation," "extraordinary rendition," or ",enemy combatants." In fact, the thought that we could be snuffed out for having politically unpopular ideas was unheard of and would have scared the hell out of people. Those who weren't scared would have said, "uhh no, you can't do that" - and rightly so. So, ultimately, what the hell happened to us? We became a nation of pansies - we became so terrified that the bad guys (read ethnic Arabs) might come to hurt us that we threw away all of our principles. We got attacked on 9/11, yeah, but the terrorists won as soon as we started throwing away our rights so we could feel better.

And definitely don't question the government about their motives at all. No, in fact, if they want to shut off TCAS, let them, because otherwise the terrorists (or whoever the bad-guy de jure is) win. Hell, why stop at TCAS? Shut down GPS, someone could use that to navigate to their intended target, and cell towers too - disrupt those because someone could use the cell network to set off a bomb. And ADS-B? Just a tool for scary-waries to use so they can find airplanes to shoot down. This sort of nonsensical, slippery-slope, BS is fascism. If that's the world you want, I suggest moving to North Korea.

You think the founding fathers would approve of this kind of nonsense? Hell no. Patrick Henry said, "give me liberty of give me death." I'd hate to see how upset he'd be to stand in line to to get scanned before getting on an airplane.

Lemme put it to you this way, you said:

You have no facts. Stop with the lies...[and]...Here is more proof of your idiotic lies ....

I respond: I don't think you know much about the truth, or facts for that matter.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Veterans dude, not active duty military personnel. Even so, my point remains. If you want to, you can read the US government funded study yourself (warning, PDF). Veterans kill themselves at a rate of around 22 per day. That's a fact. Even if you restrict yourself to current, active duty personnel the numbers are not great - in fact, in 2012, active duty suicide deaths outpaced combat deaths in Afghanistan. So...not really that great of a statistic either. Either way, this is somewhat off the beaten path of the discussion we were having, which was that 9/11 cannot and should not be a justification for the military to do whatever the hell they want.

9/11 was a watershed moment in this country, but good god, it happened almost 14 years ago now. Can we stop using it as justification to let the government do whatever the hell they want with a blank check and no accountability? We cannot run out and give unrestrained or unchecked power to people just because something is marginally scary. Honestly, statistically speaking, terrorism is not a threat (nor has it ever really been a threat) in this country to the average person. You're much more likely to die of heatstroke. On average, 675 people a year die of heatstroke. So, in the 14 years since 9/11, that's around 9,000 people, which about three times as many people died on 9/11. Pretty scary, we'd better give the EPA infinite power to regulate greenhouse gas emissions so the planet doesn't get any hotter, there should be a ESA (Environmental Security Agent) in every house and at every gas station to make sure you drive efficiently and turn off lights when you leave (that's sarcasm if you couldn't tell). If that doesn't scare you enough, weather in general kills about 2,000 people a year, that's a 9/11 every 18 months. More people die of distracted driving every year than died on 9/11. The obvious solution? Give the DOT infinite power to regulate every aspect of the driving experience - that will prevent these problems.

You're wildly more likely to be killed for a wide variety of silly mundane reasons than anything terror-related. We cannot (and frankly should not) just let people with political power have their way because some jackass could decide to kill some of us. Fear based disruption in our lives is ultimately what the terrorists want. That's what terrorism is - someone spreading fear to attain a political goal, and ultimately, it's basically impossible to prevent all acts of it without becoming some dystopian state. By modifying our behavior, we're already letting those guys win. I am significantly less free than I was on September 10th, 2001 in this country. On 9/10, I could go to the airport and not be molested. If I had been flying for a living at the time, I could have ridden in the JS without CASS. There wasn't a program (at least that we know of) to wiretap Americans without a warrant. There was no such thing as "enhanced interrogation," "extraordinary rendition," or ",enemy combatants." In fact, the thought that we could be snuffed out for having politically unpopular ideas was unheard of and would have scared the hell out of people. Those who weren't scared would have said, "uhh no, you can't do that" - and rightly so. So, ultimately, what the hell happened to us? We became a nation of pansies - we became so terrified that the bad guys (read ethnic Arabs) might come to hurt us that we threw away all of our principles. We got attacked on 9/11, yeah, but the terrorists won as soon as we started throwing away our rights so we could feel better.

And definitely don't question the government about their motives at all. No, in fact, if they want to shut off TCAS, let them, because otherwise the terrorists (or whoever the bad-guy de jure is) win. Hell, why stop at TCAS? Shut down GPS, someone could use that to navigate to their intended target, and cell towers too - disrupt those because someone could use the cell network to set off a bomb. And ADS-B? Just a tool for scary-waries to use so they can find airplanes to shoot down. This sort of nonsensical, slippery-slope, BS is fascism. If that's the world you want, I suggest moving to North Korea.

You think the founding fathers would approve of this kind of nonsense? Hell no. Patrick Henry said, "give me liberty of give me death." I'd hate to see how upset he'd be to stand in line to to get scanned before getting on an airplane.

Lemme put it to you this way, you said:



I respond: I don't think you know much about the truth, or facts for that matter.

I see what you're saying, but you're aware that the terrorists have dark skin, right? Does that change your perspective?

HUGE AMOUNTS OF for those who don't know me.

Seriously though, well put. I've been saying for a long time that we should never forget 9/11, but we will never move forward as a country until we put it behind us. The only thing that has hindered us more than the attack was our reaction to it.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Well, I guess we're all going to have to do some serious soul-searching and maybe some looking-out-of-the-window. You know, like they did before there was TCAS.

I do think it would be wise for the military to give us at least a general idea of why this is necessary, if for no other reason than to make ATN get worked up about something more hilarious.

Started with the United DC7 / TWA Constellation Grand Canyon Collision. Then the 1960 NYC midair between TWA and United again. Then several more like the PSA over San Diego and culminating to the Aeromexico DC9 outside LAX. Finally, TCAS was mandated. Turns out jetliner pilots usually can't find *and* continue to maintain visual separation with small GA aircraft. Or military too. Hughes West DC9 midair with a military fighter jet over California too.

We need TCAS. It was mandated after many people died, and like almost everything in aviation, laws and rules are written in blood.

 

[Murdoughnut]

I know you guys hate the media writing about aviation, but I think this is something they should probably get their hands on.

 

[crticalaoa]

Veterans dude, not active duty military personnel. Even so, my point remains. If you want to, you can read the US government funded study yourself (warning, PDF). Veterans kill themselves at a rate of around 22 per day. That's a fact. Even if you restrict yourself to current, active duty personnel the numbers are not great - in fact, in 2012, active duty suicide deaths outpaced combat deaths in Afghanistan. So...not really that great of a statistic either. Either way, this is somewhat off the beaten path of the discussion we were having, which was that 9/11 cannot and should not be a justification for the military to do whatever the hell they want.

9/11 was a watershed moment in this country, but good god, it happened almost 14 years ago now. Can we stop using it as justification to let the government do whatever the hell they want with a blank check and no accountability? We cannot run out and give unrestrained or unchecked power to people just because something is marginally scary. Honestly, statistically speaking, terrorism is not a threat (nor has it ever really been a threat) in this country to the average person. You're much more likely to die of heatstroke. On average, 675 people a year die of heatstroke. So, in the 14 years since 9/11, that's around 9,000 people, which about three times as many people died on 9/11. Pretty scary, we'd better give the EPA infinite power to regulate greenhouse gas emissions so the planet doesn't get any hotter, there should be a ESA (Environmental Security Agent) in every house and at every gas station to make sure you drive efficiently and turn off lights when you leave (that's sarcasm if you couldn't tell). If that doesn't scare you enough, weather in general kills about 2,000 people a year, that's a 9/11 every 18 months. More people die of distracted driving every year than died on 9/11. The obvious solution? Give the DOT infinite power to regulate every aspect of the driving experience - that will prevent these problems.

You're wildly more likely to be killed for a wide variety of silly mundane reasons than anything terror-related. We cannot (and frankly should not) just let people with political power have their way because some jackass could decide to kill some of us. Fear based disruption in our lives is ultimately what the terrorists want. That's what terrorism is - someone spreading fear to attain a political goal, and ultimately, it's basically impossible to prevent all acts of it without becoming some dystopian state. By modifying our behavior, we're already letting those guys win. I am significantly less free than I was on September 10th, 2001 in this country. On 9/10, I could go to the airport and not be molested. If I had been flying for a living at the time, I could have ridden in the JS without CASS. There wasn't a program (at least that we know of) to wiretap Americans without a warrant. There was no such thing as "enhanced interrogation," "extraordinary rendition," or ",enemy combatants." In fact, the thought that we could be snuffed out for having politically unpopular ideas was unheard of and would have scared the hell out of people. Those who weren't scared would have said, "uhh no, you can't do that" - and rightly so. So, ultimately, what the hell happened to us? We became a nation of pansies - we became so terrified that the bad guys (read ethnic Arabs) might come to hurt us that we threw away all of our principles. We got attacked on 9/11, yeah, but the terrorists won as soon as we started throwing away our rights so we could feel better.

And definitely don't question the government about their motives at all. No, in fact, if they want to shut off TCAS, let them, because otherwise the terrorists (or whoever the bad-guy de jure is) win. Hell, why stop at TCAS? Shut down GPS, someone could use that to navigate to their intended target, and cell towers too - disrupt those because someone could use the cell network to set off a bomb. And ADS-B? Just a tool for scary-waries to use so they can find airplanes to shoot down. This sort of nonsensical, slippery-slope, BS is fascism. If that's the world you want, I suggest moving to North Korea.

You think the founding fathers would approve of this kind of nonsense? Hell no. Patrick Henry said, "give me liberty of give me death." I'd hate to see how upset he'd be to stand in line to to get scanned before getting on an airplane.

Lemme put it to you this way, you said:



I respond: I don't think you know much about the truth, or facts for that matter.

I see were you are coming from. I am not going to continue this argument because to me 9/11 still very fresh in my memory and I will never forget that day. I lost friends, family and joined the military so my kids don't have another 9/11. Suicides among military personnel is sad, I lost military friends due to suicide. Iraq should have never happened but what makes the US great is if you don't like something the government is doing you can say something about it and not get sent to jail for it.

 

[crticalaoa]

I'm not a tin foil hat kind of guy, but it makes you wonder what they are exactly up to, and why they don't want us to know about it. I'd be a little nervous going through that area at night or IMC. At least during the day you might have a chance to avoid whatever they might send your way.

I am looking at the positive. If they are really going to take it down it better be for something good. Not just some general who comes up with a "strategy" because he needs more promotion points. It better be worth it is all I am saying.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

but what makes the US great is if you don't like something the government is doing you can say something about it and not get sent to jail for it.

I agree, but there's a lot of places like that. I agree that it's great, but not unique.

 

[wheelsup]

I see were you are coming from. I am not going to continue this argument because to me 9/11 still very fresh in my memory and I will never forget that day. I lost friends, family and joined the military so my kids don't have another 9/11 from happening. Suicides among military personnel is sad, I lost military friends due to suicide. Iraq should have never happened but what makes the US great is if you don't like something the government is doing you can say something about it and not get sent to jail for it.

The US, by its actions, caused 9/11 and other terrorist events. We have caused ISIS by eliminating someone we even put into power in Iraq. Until we stop meddling in others affairs 9/11 and events like it will continue to happen, and we will continue to be at risk for them. By direct and indirect actions, the US government has killed millions of people worldwide without even pulling a trigger. It's quite sad. But, "RAH RAH 9/11 USA RAH RAH" gets you a lot further in polls.

 

[crticalaoa]

I agree, but there's a lot of places like that. I agree that it's great, but not unique.

True but I bet we are the only country were you get peanuts for flying a jet and we get TCAS taken away for half of the country! lol

 

[crticalaoa]

The US, by its actions, caused 9/11 and other terrorist events. We have caused ISIS by eliminating someone we even put into power in Iraq. Until we stop meddling in others affairs 9/11 and events like it will continue to happen, and we will continue to be at risk for them. By direct and indirect actions, the US government has killed millions of people worldwide without even pulling a trigger. It's quite sad. But, "RAH RAH 9/11 USA RAH RAH" gets you a lot further in polls.

In some parts you are right. My view is we should have never gone into Iraq, that was dumb. We do have our noses in way to many places and we should try to deescalate tension. For example bravo to the president with what he did with Cuba. I am still a bit shaky about the nuclear deal with Iran but well see what happens.

 

[NewYorkophile]

The US, by its actions, caused 9/11 and other terrorist events. We have caused ISIS by eliminating someone we even put into power in Iraq. Until we stop meddling in others affairs 9/11 and events like it will continue to happen, and we will continue to be at risk for them. By direct and indirect actions, the US government has killed millions of people worldwide without even pulling a trigger. It's quite sad. But, "RAH RAH 9/11 USA RAH RAH" gets you a lot further in polls.

Ok, there are some legit arguments in this thread, but saying "we caused ISIS" is skipping a *whole* lot of steps.

ISIS doesn't exist if Iraqis possessed any kind of nationalistic backbone (they don't).
ISIS doesn't exist if Iraqis set aside sectarian partisanship in favor of peace and prosperity at any point in the last 10 years.
ISIS doesn't exist if Syria possessed a stable government.
ISIS doesn't exist if the Iraqi military was willing to defend and fight for Kurdish-held northern territory.

There's a decent chance that Saddam would have died from old age in the last 10 years anyways- leaving the Murder Brothers in charge. Pick your poison.

I'm not defending the invasion- but saying "we caused ISIS" is cherry-picking your timeline. That region is fundamentally ****** for the next 100 years by the Brits who drew political borders around a powder keg 100 years ago, and fundamentally ****** for the next 100 by their own doing.

Anyways, let's talk about the military abusing it's power.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Ok, there are some legit arguments in this thread, but saying "we caused ISIS" is skipping a *whole* lot of steps.

ISIS doesn't exist if Iraqis possessed any kind of nationalistic backbone (they don't).
ISIS doesn't exist if Iraqis set aside sectarian partisanship in favor of peace and prosperity at any point in the last 10 years.
ISIS doesn't exist if Syria possessed a stable government.
ISIS doesn't exist if the Iraqi military was willing to defend and fight for Kurdish-held northern territory.

There's a decent chance that Saddam would have died from old age in the last 10 years anyways- leaving the Murder Brothers in charge. Pick your poison.

I'm not defending the invasion- but saying "we caused ISIS" is cherry-picking your timeline. That region is fundamentally ****** for the next 100 years by the Brits who drew political borders around a powder keg 100 years ago, and fundamentally ****** for the next 100 by their own doing.

Anyways, let's talk about the military abusing it's power.

Actually, we kinda did cause ISIS. Taking over a Sunni-majority country that oppressed (to a degree) the Shias and Kurds, kicking out the Sunni majority in the government/power structure, and installing a Shia led group, and then up and leave the country. What did you think was going to happen? The natural equilibrium of Sunni majority came back in the form of ISIS.

If Saddam was still in power, there wouldn't have been the massive loss of Iraqi lives that we've had in the last 10 years since the 2003 invasion. Even if Saddam passed from natural old age, the powers to be would still be Sunni-majority and status quo would have been maintained. The Shias and Kurds were always oppressed but the problem is now thousands of times worse than it was under 2003 Saddam Hussein.

 

[NewYorkophile]

In some parts you are right. My view is we should have never gone into Iraq, that was dumb. We do have our noses in way to many places and we should try to deescalate tension. For example bravo to the president with what he did with Cuba. I am still a bit shaky about the nuclear deal with Iran but well see what happens.

I'm in favor of the deal. There are tight controls in place, and it creates a framework for us working collaboratively with an Islamic power. If the other option is to threaten, embargo, and "hope" they don't continue under our noses, then I'll take this deal every day of the week. Nuclear non-proliferation is about preventing nuclear weaponization (not stopping nuclear power generation) by guaranteeing our nuclear protection umbrella for those who participate with us. That's why Europe doesn't develop nuclear weapons independently- we have agreed to extend our nuclear mutually-assured-destruction umbrella to them.

The more friendly players we have under our umbrella in the interest of less total nuclear weapons in the world, the better.

I think the lesson of the last decade has been "more carrot, less stick".

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

The US, by its actions, caused 9/11 and other terrorist events. We have caused ISIS by eliminating someone we even put into power in Iraq. Until we stop meddling in others affairs 9/11 and events like it will continue to happen, and we will continue to be at risk for them. By direct and indirect actions, the US government has killed millions of people worldwide without even pulling a trigger. It's quite sad. But, "RAH RAH 9/11 USA RAH RAH" gets you a lot further in polls.

+1

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

What's the difference between Zionists and ISISists? Both, through the name of a religion, want to expand their powers and control the land as they see fit based on religious reasons. It is one of the many reasons our support for Israel needs to be modified. Or we can keep it unchanged status quo and risk another attack on US soil as some oppressed people decide to lash out and attack the US over the Israel/Middle East situation. Again.

 

[NewYorkophile]

Actually, we kinda did cause ISIS. Taking over a Sunni-majority country that oppressed (to a degree) the Shias and Kurds, kicking out the Sunni majority in the government/power structure, and installing a Shia led group, and then up and leave the country. What did you think was going to happen? The natural equilibrium of Sunni majority came back in the form of ISIS.

If Saddam was still in power, there wouldn't have been the massive loss of Iraqi lives that we've had in the last 10 years since the 2003 invasion. Even if Saddam passed from natural old age, the powers to be would still be Sunni-majority and status quo would have been maintained. The Shias and Kurds were always oppressed but the problem is now thousands of times worse than it was under 2003 Saddam Hussein.

I think colossal mistakes were made in the reconstruction of Iraq- they needed a Lincoln, and they got a Bush.

However, Shia are the majority in Iraq. Not Sunni.

 

[Boris Badenov]

What's the difference between Zionists and ISISists?

I'm going to assume that you don't mean this as a serious question, so what's the answer you're hoping to bring out? Nothing? There is no difference?

 

[Minuteman]

Why can't "are troops" test this kind of stuff out in Deigo Garcia for a month?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Correction, Sunni-majority in the government/control form. Not the country population.