Sierra West Airlines Hiring Lear FO's

Maurus said:
This is employment. I was employed at an hourly rate and they get me the students and airplanes to use. I believe you are an independant CFI that has more work to do. More pay for more work sounds right.



They don't have first year Lear FOs. Actually they don't have any FOs in the Lears at all. They are all sold off except three sitting in the hanger.

I can't tell you how the Lears used to work since they don't fly them any more. As far as I know only senior guys got the right seat in the Lear. That means they most likely started at year 5 pay or better. I agree that is low, but that pay scale for the Lear is from many years ago as well. They haven't flown the Lears for a long time.



I was a customer. They don't just tell me "hey, we pay our staff crappy wages". I learned their wages when I was looking at getting my CFI and possibly working there.

Not to mention I ended up going to one of the more expensive schools in the industry where the instructors get a salary.



So using earned points after paying tons of money for their services is a bad thing? Not to mention the place I stayed in is one of the good brands for Hilton. Definitely not a cheap hotel.

Curious. Do you not give anyone the opportunity to learn? I had no guidance when coming into this industry. All I am asking is for the people that have experience to give good advice instead of giving up. No one will know what is right in the industry unless they are told. If someone more experienced gives them a "hell yeah" for a crappy job they wont learn a thing.

Apparently I am not allowed to learn from mistakes and I'm doomed to forever be paid low wages, otherwise be a hypocrite. Heaven forbid I try and use what I learned to help others.
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But they have first year EMB-120 FOs making $23K a year? In high cost areas?
What a second... you first wrote that instructors made $15/hour but now you say they were on salary? So which is it?
Also with your hotel it's not what you wrote. You wrote you were staying cheap at the Hampton Inn... not exactly known as the high rent place to stay.
As for giving advise, I'm all for it. I just find it funny when pilots who've had their commercial certificates less than four years start lecturing pilots about where to work and where not to work; who should be paying what; etc. Kind of reminds me of the joke about the 2LT saying, "It's been my experience..."
I also tire of hypocrites who have excuses about the wages they paid (as a customer you were in effect paying the wage), but then will lecture pilots on the wage they should earn.
 
Hey Blackhawk, I am confused. Are you actually advocating that these kids should go fly a Lear for $250 a week? Are you really OK with that?

I am also a little confused about your comparison of military pay with the private sector. IMO, military pay should not be used as a benchmark for what a civilian pilot should make.
 
SIUav8er said:
Hey Blackhawk, I am confused. Are you actually advocating that these kids should go fly a Lear for $250 a week? Are you really OK with that?

I am also a little confused about your comparison of military pay with the private sector. IMO, military pay should not be used as a benchmark for what a civilian pilot should make.
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I really could care less. It's the call of the person interested or not interested in the job and I think it's pretty presumptive of people- especially those with so little experience- to start lecturing on what is and is not acceptable. Especially people who go to a place that charges $1300 for 8.2 hours of multiengine. I've owned airplanes and know what is involved in maintaining them and filling them with fuel. Heck, I was chief pilot of a cargo operator in El Paso and we went under partly due to the competition from Sierra West, so if anything I've should have more of an ax to grind. But that's life. Sierra West is not flying struck work. No one is forced to work there and anyone going there should know what they pay and what the work conditions are. At that point they are free to live their lives and take the job or leave it.
 
Sure, but if people dont tell these guys that $250 a week isnt acceptable, how would they know? Sure, they need to get gain experience. I get that. But I dont think the right seat of a lear is the proper place to be gaining basic experience. This is a job that should be filled by someone with more experience AND it should pay a livable wage. But youre right, ranting like a lunatic on an online message board is a little over the top... but I still think it needs to be emphasized that these jobs are bad for all pilots. Even the newly minted commercial pilots.
 
SIUav8er said:
Sure, but if people dont tell these guys that $250 a week isnt acceptable, how would they know?
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But why is it your place to say that $250 a week is/isn't acceptable. For yourself, it might not be, but how are you qualified to tell someone else what they can/can't make a week?
 
Blackhawk said:
I really could care less. It's the call of the person interested or not interested in the job and I think it's pretty presumptive of people- especially those with so little experience- to start lecturing on what is and is not acceptable. Especially people who go to a place that charges $1300 for 8.2 hours of multiengine. I've owned airplanes and know what is involved in maintaining them and filling them with fuel. Heck, I was chief pilot of a cargo operator in El Paso and we went under partly due to the competition from Sierra West, so if anything I've should have more of an ax to grind. But that's life. Sierra West is not flying struck work. No one is forced to work there and anyone going there should know what they pay and what the work conditions are. At that point they are free to live their lives and take the job or leave it.
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"Experience" - if a job pays less than $22500 per year for a newly minted commercial pilot, that's too little. That's the going rate at the union shop at Pinnacle Corp... we have hired folks with as little as 190 hours to fly a CRJ200...

say what you will about the practice of "low timers" flying 50 people around "being hand-held" (I have no opinion of the matter), but if a guy can get a job at a regional airline with low time (still) and it pays greater than $22500 a year, any job that pays less is just unacceptable.

By the way, what year / condition are the ME aircraft you are flying that cost less than $158/hr (including instructor?)

5 years ago right before I graduated ERAU, the cost of the aircraft + instructor was $208/hr dry (and the fuel surcharge was $64.44/hr)....

Our aircraft were brand new, less than 100 hours on airframe, when I flew them, and as a MX/Parts Employee, I know exactly what it cost ERAU to maintain a high standard of reliability.

Food for thought.

Don't take a job less than $20K a year until the airlines can't hire you with < 1500 hours guys!!!
 
29singlespeed said:
All -- to each is their own. We all have different ways of networking and this is NOT a pay for training gig. We still have not heard what the current pay is. To that end, SIC is just that SIC and how many of us have asked a friend in our network for the chance to fly right seat in whatever.

I am not for the pay scale, but consider it an internship if they will offer someone with less than 500 hours to get trained -- as sketchy as it is. MBA, Law, whatever they range from paying for the 'credit' to decent wages. This is no different in my book.
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Be careful man. One day you will be out there working for a substandard wage and wish you were out on your mountain bike. One day career advancement will pale in comparison to a day at home on the bike.
 
Blackhawk said:
But they have first year EMB-120 FOs making $23K a year? In high cost areas?
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Last I checked it was the going rate for that airplane in any area. Most areas the Brasilias are in are not high cost. Also the pilots don't need the part 135 mins, but as soon as they hit them they will move up to the PA-31.

Blackhawk said:
What a second... you first wrote that instructors made $15/hour but now you say they were on salary? So which is it?
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You read that wrong. I went to another school to finish up my ratings. The school had a $90/hr instructor rate and payed them a salary.

Blackhawk said:
Also with your hotel it's not what you wrote. You wrote you were staying cheap at the Hampton Inn... not exactly known as the high rent place to stay.
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Funny. It is $160 a night to stay at the location I stayed at. Not exactly cheap. Also the points used were accumulated at some other more expensive Hilton properties as well.

Blackhawk said:
As for giving advise, I'm all for it. I just find it funny when pilots who've had their commercial certificates less than four years start lecturing pilots about where to work and where not to work; who should be paying what; etc. Kind of reminds me of the joke about the 2LT saying, "It's been my experience..."
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The thing is that I have been in their position. I have had the Lear 35 job thrown at me before only to be severely undercut by the type of people that would take this job. I seriously do have the experience not to mention people that have even more experience than you backing me up. I go to them with these questions because they know the industry. The biggest thing I was told was to never settle for less than industry standard. I listen to experience.

Blackhawk said:
I also tire of hypocrites who have excuses about the wages they paid (as a customer you were in effect paying the wage), but then will lecture pilots on the wage they should earn.
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Again. I had no idea. The school doesn't say out loud that they pay their employees peanuts. That is obviously not good for business. The common sense here is amazingly lost for you.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Again, I ask, who is "all of us"? I don't see how you feel like you can make a decision for everyone else.
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How about the more experienced pilots looking to make a living in that airframe? I personally was undercut in that exact airframe. It happens unfortunately. At least giving good advice isn't the same as demanding they not take the job. I can't stop them from taking the job, but what I can do is say "hey, think about what you are doing for a sec."

Sometimes SJS seems like a great idea at the moment, but once you start flying and get pushed around a ton at the job you will realize that sitting at FL450 is not as good as making more money. Maybe I am wrong, I have only been up to FL410. A jet is just another airplane. When I fly a jet I plan on doing it for the money and not the airplane. Unfortunately I have to try and make sure the money is still there when I get to that level.
 
Maurus said:
How about the more experienced pilots looking to make a living in that airframe? I personally was undercut in that exact airframe. It happens unfortunately. At least giving good advice isn't the same as demanding they not take the job. I can't stop them from taking the job, but what I can do is say "hey, think about what you are doing for a sec." Sometimes SJS seems like a great idea at the moment, but once you start flying and get pushed around a ton at the job you will realize that sitting at FL450 is not as good as making more money. Maybe I am wrong, I have only been up to FL410.
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Ok, I'll respect that answer. I just don't think it's fair for a group of people to say what is/isn't a fair pay rate for what I do. You know, I know my financial situation, I know what I need to make and I'll work from that. I've got no problems with people like yourself who offer advice. My disappointment is with the group of people who insist that a single person is somehow destroying their personal career.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Again, I ask, who is "all of us"? I don't see how you feel like you can make a decision for everyone else.
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"All of us" are those who make a LIVING flying (insert airframe here). It doesnt matter if you "need multi engine time" or youre too cool to do the traditional time builder type jobs. It doesnt matter if your financial situation allows you to fly for a company that doesnt pay a livable salary. If that is the case, dont take the job away from someone who needs it to feed their family.

People who come to work for these type of operators are simply enabling these companies to continue to pay these embarrassing wages.

What do you do for a living by the way?
 
vikingair said:
I know three people who work/worked there. If your interested I'll put you in touch. Let's just say that I went 4 months looking for a position before landing my current gig and I never took advantage of having friends who would help get me on board.
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PM sent

Hope I'm not too late to this party . . .
 
Man, I know this is probably bad, but I flew for free for a while on the job I finally landed. On my days off when not doing the CFI thing, I would hitch a ride on the metro and gain some experience. A few months later, they got used to me, and offered me a job (25Kyear).

I have mixed thoughts on the whole thing. And yes, I know it is BAD for our bussiness to do that!

The flight school I worked for barely paid the full time CFI's 250 a week. Because we only got paid "IF" we were flying regardless of if the wx was our fault. So, when the WX got bad, or it was way to windy to fly. . . nobody got paid, even though we had to stay there 7 hours a day. MAN, I ENDED UP AT THE WRONG FLIGHT SCHOOL IT SOUNDS LIKE!!
 
jerrywhite7 said:
Man, I know this is probably bad, but I flew for free for a while on the job I finally landed. On my days off when not doing the CFI thing, I would hitch a ride on the metro and gain some experience. A few months later, they got used to me, and offered me a job (25Kyear).

I have mixed thoughts on the whole thing. And yes, I know it is BAD for our bussiness to do that!

The flight school I worked for barely paid the full time CFI's 250 a week. Because we only got paid "IF" we were flying regardless of if the wx was our fault. So, when the WX got bad, or it was way to windy to fly. . . nobody got paid, even though we had to stay there 7 hours a day. MAN, I ENDED UP AT THE WRONG FLIGHT SCHOOL IT SOUNDS LIKE!!
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Dude that's tight. I have that same job where you don't get paid . So to be honest working for free wouldn't be far from what I make now LMFAO. But I am moving soon to a new flight instructing job that will give more more hours and a stable paycheck. jhugz has a personally vandetta for u bro.

I feel for you though. If we all wanted to get a better flying job in life you have be able to roll with the punches. Jhugz just doesn't seem to like anything that isn't his perspective. Jerrywhite I believe if you said that no one should work for free jhugz would just say the opposite because he seems to always pick a fight with you.

Sorry jhugs but your posts are becoming way to negative. Jhugz if you truly believe that it is your way or the highway I don't think you will make it very far in this career.

It amazes how this is a jobs available thread and it turns to a bashing of your peers. Live your life not someone else's. Sheesh. Be happy for others who are getting the job.

Congratulations to all those who will be flying 135 soon.

I'm ready to be bashed btw.
 
snOOp said:
Dude that's tight. I have that same job where you don't get paid . So to be honest working for free wouldn't be far from what I make now LMFAO. But I am moving soon to a new flight instructing job that will give more more hours and a stable paycheck. jhugz has a personally vandetta for u bro.

I feel for you though. If we all wanted to get a better flying job in life you have be able to roll with the punches. Jhugz just doesn't seem to like anything that isn't his perspective. Jerrywhite I believe if you said that no one should work for free jhugz would just say the opposite because he seems to always pick a fight with you.

Sorry jhugs but your posts are becoming way to negative. Jhugz if you truly believe that it is your way or the highway I don't think you will make it very far in this career.

It amazes how this is a jobs available thread and it turns to a bashing of your peers. Live your life not someone else's. Sheesh. Be happy for others who are getting the job.

Congratulations to all those who will be flying 135 soon.

I'm ready to be bashed btw.
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I love words being put in my mouth.
 
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