Side Commentary from “Extra things you had on your application…”
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BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
bimmerphile
MCAS Meat Inhibition Logic
a newcomer asking questions, can we keep the personal gripes down and be useful?
OP, a lot of good things mentioned but from your other threads it seems like you are already pretty busy. There’s not much you can do at this stage to make yourself look appealing to a legacy besides keeping your nose clean, making steady progress in training, and increasing the level of responsibility in your career.
jhugz
Well-Known Member
Look…is it a dog and pony show, sure. However, there’s thousands of resumes, thousands interviewed, and somehow those applicants need to be whittled down. This system is working whether you like it or not. Does it leave quality people on the outside looking in, absolutely. There just aren’t enough seats even during record times. Sad reality, it’s only going to get worse as hiring gets more competitive. However…the only way to win, is to play. If you can’t stomach this, my suggestion is stay where you are if you’re happy. If not, get out and try something else. I don’t see things changing anytime soon.
Take a step back and look at what you’re doing. There’s a lot of people on here that can be your ally for your career. Are your actions and behaviors enticing them to go out of their way, stick their neck out and help…or the opposite.
-j
JordanD
Here so I don’t get fined
We’ve tried.
jhugz
Well-Known Member
That’s ok. Today I’m relaxing in a hot tub, enjoying the last day of my 15 days Brazilian vacation browsing JC. I don’t mind wasting the key strokes. Maybe at some point it will sink in. I can’t imagine the number of keystrokes certain people on here wasted on me that I didn’t listen to. They still kept typing and eventually I figured it out. If my dunce ass can, then so can anyone else. So while I’m bored sipping a Baden Baden (seriously amazing beer) and have a couple minutes to kill, I’ll waste the key strokes with the hopes they eventually hit home.
You without a doubt have come a long way from where you started here. Folks could absolutely learn something from you.
Back in the day I never would have believed I’d eventually type those words.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
I've batted around responding to this, frankly, engagement-bait, and I guess I took the bait. I'm going to attempt to be productive in it, because the OP might even find it useful.
Alright.
Listen.
I hate the dog-and-pony show as much as the next aerocritter if not more, but at the end of the day, I decided it was worth it to trudge through it a relatively-unprecedented third time (!) down there in Red Square. I dragged my feet on it a bit through a combination of having what was, at the time, a rather good aviation job and being somewhat comfortable and maybe wanting to do some other things in my life (which, ha ha, none of that really panned out). I absolutely agonized over the choice to leave NKS when I had to make it, and in hindsight it appears to have been correct. I didn't know that, however.
You may not know this but you may also be pleased or amused to know that I've failed more interviews than I've received CJOs from. Some of that is a pure function of being a dip-• raised in suburban Southern California who grew up around airplanes and with a silver-plated spoon in his mouth (silver-plated, not solid silver; bankruptcy and all). Some of that doubtless was my own immaturity and some of it is just plain old lousy freaking luck of the draw, as you will not get along with everyone. On the plus side, I've gotten to 'meet' a lot of outfits, I guess, so hooray for progress or whatever. It's business to them and personal to you, because that's how it is.
The rub is that at a certain point, every place I've ever flown an airliner for (or applied to do same) is asking me to, to varying degrees:
- wear a uniform
- represent the brand well
- comply with their operating procedures
- comply with their corporate policies
- get through training with a minimum of kaevetching and as few extra sessions (preferably zero) as required
- not find myself in the CPO unless I walked in there under my own power to shoot the breeze or for some other 'legitimate' purpose
- various other expressions of "shut up and color, Captain or F/O Blue, your problem is duly noted and the report is closed with no further action #dealwithit"
That's it. That's the dog-and-pony-show. I dislike it too, but I'm not in charge and I doubt I ever will be and God help us all if I am, etc. I dislike interview prep firms and app review firms and "make sure you wear a red tie and a navy suit" (I wore a grey suit, hell with it) and "thank them for being there and then promptly forget to actually answer the first question" (don't - just answer the damn question). Whatever poor powers I have to affect change are approximately zero if I'm on the outside looking in, and it's better to be inside looking out--so, well, I shut up and I very neatly scribbled for a bit.
Just my four cents, adjusted for inflation.
🦈💜
Well-Known Member
This you said about people being left on the outside looking in is something that I think really, really NEEDS to be said a lot more clearly, and a lot more loudly, because everyone only talks about the positives when it comes to this job. "It's a great time to be at a regional!" "It's your job to lose." "This is the easiest job I've ever worked." "It beats working for a living," etc. I think people need to know that airline hiring isn't merit-based or performance-based.
I think that needs to be said up front, especially with people just breezing through the pipeline that @luke3 mentioned, ATP->CFI->regional->major in just a few years, and posting all over social media about it.
It would be hard for me to be more miserable. I love the actual flying still, and my crews, and mentoring, teaching, and getting to know my FOs. But the schedules are destroying my mental and physical health. (As you can probably tell from my replies)
I'm trying to get out to other sectors of aviation, but it's proving surprisingly difficult. I'm honestly afraid that after all this time as a pilot, I'm at a dead-end in flying, unless I start at the bottom in some other segment of the industry.
Pretty much everyone has tried, at this point, both friends here and elsewhere. I have effectively as many letters of recommendation as I want, and I've had many people who've walked my resumes in, etc. It's not for lack of anyone's allyship or good advice, and I've had lots of friends who were baffled by why I wasn't getting called.
At this point, though, I'm at a job that I just can't stay at. It's destroying me. But I can't get out, either, without abandoning the career I built.
Thank you for the kindness of your reply.
Wardogg
Meat Popsicle
Ever been furloughed? Ever been furloughed permanently because your airline of choice closed its doors? Try having “the bottom” forced upon you. It’s sucks, but there’s nothing wrong with starting at the bottom. I’ve been there. Others have been there. If you want out of your current job I’m not sure why you think you shouldn’t have to.
You complain about the system but want to reap the benefits of seniority. If you have beef there are no lateral moves in this industry thank a Union. Good or bad that system wasn’t handed down from the airlines.
There are part 91 outfits that will hire you into the left seat. Maybe not in your area. Maybe you have to move. Everyone makes choices. Either live with yours or change them. Either way, life isn’t fair. It never will be. It’s the #1 rule I teach my kids. The sooner a person learns that, overall, the better off they are. Adapt and overcome. Or stay miserable. No one is coming to save you.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Yup. And @EIR literally just wrote a guy bent a 767 and got hired at Delta. LOL. Absolutely pathetic. Did Delta run out guys not bending planes?
It’s all 100% BS.
Don’t justify his background. There’s literally a thousand+ guys out there that haven’t bent a 767 yet. Don’t care how many habitats for humanities he did or what other stupid nonsense he checked on the application.
Acrofox I’m sorry you’re going through this. I still thank god everyday I got hired at VX and don’t have to go through todays modern hiring BS.
🦈💜
Well-Known Member
This is all sidebar, and only tangentially related even to the original tangent, but:
I'll be honest, that sounds like a dream to me right now. Not having to go back to work, without having to explain to a prospective employer why I left twice?
I have no seniority.
While you're undoubtedly right, overall, a good chunk of my current (< 1 year) FOs are in the United Pathway Program, though some (like the aforementioned) are skipping the pathway. And I'm still having to console a good chunk of them for not being at the majors with their classmates and buddies. Not that it's relevant to the discussion, but it's sure hard to bend over backwards to give good career advice, LORs, etc., to FOs who are moving on when I'm not. Especially when they have basically zero understanding of the industry or anything else, but they're playing the game like champs. That's kinda what this thread makes me think of, and probably why I reacted.
Then again, I feel like we might be entering "all bets are off" territory now, so who knows what will happen in the next few years.
That said, honestly, your reply helps. I swear, sometimes all I need is someone who'll just say "Yeah, sucks that you missed the boat, and you should probably get out." rather than "You need to keep grinding, look forward, suck it up, just a little longer, etc." This website is full of my peers—people I respect, people who I've looked to for advice for a huge chunk of my life, people who I actually genuinely like and at times enjoy spending time interacting with. But it's basically just me and Dacuj left at the bottom now.
"Well back in my day, we didn't even USE FMS speeds. We just dialed Vfs into manual speeds!"
"Ok, gramma. Let's get you to the hotel."
I'll be honest, that sounds like a dream to me right now. Not having to go back to work, without having to explain to a prospective employer why I left twice?
I have no seniority.
While you're undoubtedly right, overall, a good chunk of my current (< 1 year) FOs are in the United Pathway Program, though some (like the aforementioned) are skipping the pathway. And I'm still having to console a good chunk of them for not being at the majors with their classmates and buddies. Not that it's relevant to the discussion, but it's sure hard to bend over backwards to give good career advice, LORs, etc., to FOs who are moving on when I'm not. Especially when they have basically zero understanding of the industry or anything else, but they're playing the game like champs. That's kinda what this thread makes me think of, and probably why I reacted.
Then again, I feel like we might be entering "all bets are off" territory now, so who knows what will happen in the next few years.
That said, honestly, your reply helps. I swear, sometimes all I need is someone who'll just say "Yeah, sucks that you missed the boat, and you should probably get out." rather than "You need to keep grinding, look forward, suck it up, just a little longer, etc." This website is full of my peers—people I respect, people who I've looked to for advice for a huge chunk of my life, people who I actually genuinely like and at times enjoy spending time interacting with. But it's basically just me and Dacuj left at the bottom now.
"Well back in my day, we didn't even USE FMS speeds. We just dialed Vfs into manual speeds!"
"Ok, gramma. Let's get you to the hotel."
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
Ha, well, I am not, nor will I ever be, in the 'pilot retention' department if that's ever a thing either.That said, honestly, your reply helps. I swear, sometimes all I need is someone who'll just say "Yeah, sucks that you missed the boat, and you should probably get out." rather than "You need to keep grinding, look forward, suck it up, just a little longer, etc." This website is full of my peers—people I respect, people who I've looked to for advice for a huge chunk of my life, people who I actually genuinely like and at times enjoy spending time interacting with. But it's basically just me and Dacuj left at the bottom now.
An aside: Your situation is completely aggravated by being perma-plug. It's super instructive insofar as "are you sure you want to be a direct-entry regional Captain 'cause, well, if you are, this is what you get." That said: I'd also have to imagine that, especially given your management's recent comments about how happy they are with their captain production and retention (and the fact that while nobody's publicly saying it nor will they ever, it's probably best for a legacy applicant to have Captain time again), relief from your perma-plug status may actually arrive at some point in the near-ish future. Just a thought.
Food for thought, too, but my worst day at Yellow was still far easier than the average day in a regional jet and even if I didn't plan on working there it was an absolute laugh riot the entire time. Not helpful to you as they aren't going to be hiring for possibly the next forever, but the point is that getting somewhat unconventional in your thinking may be required for forward progress for both your bank account and quality of life. Might be time to get a little weird or at least 'unplanned' with the next step.
Do not cite the deep magic to me, I was there when it was written...
Speaking of old stuff, and journeys of discovery that would have been evident had anyone in SGU read the manual, the Company's sudden realization that you shouldn't go to CLB-1 right after takeoff when the airplane had pre-set CLB-2, heat being the brother of thrust output, had me laughing whenever they figured that out.
🦈💜
Well-Known Member
Interestingly, I didn't get any of the DEC bonuses or anything, because I was a "reinstatement," not a "new hire." But I lost my seniority because I was a "new hire." Likewise, I didn't get any uniform allocation or move days, because I wasn't a "new hire." Nor did I get to submit an initial bid for my base.
It's ok, though, it was all "within policy."
And yes, perma-plug, especially at my shop, for 1.75 years has been pretty awful. Bad work rules, nobody cares about reserves, no protections on reserve, RJ MOUs, am short call, etc. Of course, I have a lot of good to say about the people I work with, but it's been a lot. Currently sitting in ROA In the middle of what is effectively a five day trip (2day + 4day, min rest between; 19.3 hours / 11 legs / 36 hours of duty over the past 3 days.)
After force upgrading the few upgrade-eligible FOs who were junior to me into the CRJ in DTW, they're satisfied with captain staffing at the moment. They're not smoking any more FOs.
Apps have been in across the board all year, to everything but regionals. Updating regularly, though I'm at the point of giving up.
There was a lot of learning going on back in the day. There still is, but its nature is different. Sometimes I find myself stuck in a history lesson trying to explain stuff to people.
phill1174
Well-Known Member
Are those 1000+ applicants pleasurable to sit by for 7 days? Can they be accountable when they F up? How do they treat their co workers? There’s people out there with spotless records and they’re douchebags (sorry if I can’t say that), nightmares for any CA they fly with or a HR liability. I’d sit next to someone who bent metal and learned from it any day vs. the latter example.
As for the rest of the post all I can say is that you have to play the game. The only failure I’ve had is my CFII initial and I’ve never been in any trouble at my previous jobs and always took care of my customers. That’s fine and dandy but you gotta be able to convey that in the 45min-1hr you get with the interviewers. For me my foot is irresistible under stress but thankfully I landed somewhere where the check matches the name on the side of the plane.
I say all that to say keep playing the game if you want a prize. It can be frustrating and we all know someone who shouldn’t have been hired but they played the game.
The bad part about sour grapes toward the people that got the job you applied for and were never called is very telling.
The fact that you were still an applicant until quite recently really elucidates the issue.
Now if you claim “No, It’s been a long time, I swear” and the fact that you still think about the girl that never let you dance with her means you’re not over it.
Let let her go.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Nah man. I’m cool knowing I haven’t (knock on wood) bent a plane while trying to make it to a dream shop.
I know you’re deep in that hiring game. Still don’t care, and I call it out for the crap system it is today. Not just your shop - pretty much everywhere.
And for the record, I was an applicant only from 2016-March 2020. I haven’t updated any apps since. I’m happy with my shop and my position today. In fact, I think trying to leave to stay in one particular base was a silly thing to try and do.
The good thing about making it and not trying to leave - I don’t have to be fake with you, or any hiring guy, or any pilot for that matter. I get to call the BS as I see it.
And yes, it is BS.