shuting down in FL???

Re: From AOPA

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Wait. Re-building and installing a CRJ sim, then leaving? They aren't just leaving, they're getting ready to sell the place to someone.......

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Oh yeah, forgot to tell you guys. Their old building will be a joint operating base for Gulfstream/TAB....

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WHAT?!?!?!
 
Re: From AOPA

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Wait. Re-building and installing a CRJ sim, then leaving? They aren't just leaving, they're getting ready to sell the place to someone.......

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Oh yeah, forgot to tell you guys. Their old building will be a joint operating base for Gulfstream/TAB....

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WHAT?!?!?!

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Kidding!
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Re: From AOPA

not funny
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What is everyone talking about a Vero Beach campus for PanAm? All i know about is FlightScrewMe... I mean Flight****Me.... I mean.... oh, forget it.

Go AVIATOR!!
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Come to the aviator... MORE MULTI TIME THAN ANYONE!!!
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Plus, if you go through the Pro Course, youll get hired GUARANTEED as a CFI for them..... Just go there and ask around. EVERY CFI (less one, former PanAm, but they hired him cause he's a 2year CFI and we need him to help sign people off for their Initial CFI..... why dont we have any 2year CFI's that went through the Pro Course, CAUSE, they all got hired by the Regionals. No kidding, about 6-8 months as a CFI at the aviator, you should have no problem getting a job at the regionals.... we lost 3 CFI's two weeks ago. Go to http://www.aribenaviator.com/news/ it tells you how many cfis we've lost) went through the Pro Course. Mike and Ari (the owners) dont hire anyone from the outside.
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We use the same examiners that PanAm and FlightSaftey uses. We dont have any IN-HOUSE examiners that can cheat our students by letting them pass EVERY checkride. (Your not a REAL pilot unless you've been humbled to busting a checkride, not my opinion, FACT).

I just did a 5hour checkout for a former PanAm CFI (good guy, good pilot). He told me that in ONE YEAR instructing at PanAm, he only established 250 Flight hours.
At the Aviator (aka Ari-Ben Aviator), the average is 80-100 Flight Hours per month for the Instructors. One instructor in the month of Feb. got 160 flight hours logged in his logbook. I say flight hours cause some people might think i was talking about sim time if i just said 160TT.

I know this is ALOT, but, AVIATOR seriously is the best way to go, IF, you want the following: SAVE MONEY, MULTI-TIME (200 FLIGHT HOURS, NO SIM), etc.


Ivan

****Bad bad Ivan... no spelled out F words please!
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Re: From AOPA

Dude, first, watch the language. If I've got to start sending out COPPA forms and parental consent forms because my users lose the ability to discern what's appropriate behavior in which forums, I'm going to get peeved.

Let's not go there. It's not pretty.

Secondly, I don't need my advertisers sending me angry email about 'forum cannibalism'. Got experience with Pan Am and are happy/upset about it? Fantastic, write away, keep it real, that's what we're here for. But the last thing we need is some sort of tribal warfare between sponsors/non-sponsors of the website.
 
Re: From AOPA

my flight school brings all the pilots to the yard, and they're like, its better than yours, they can teach you, but they'll have to charge...alot
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Re: From AOPA

Im just giving the facts, not trying to start a war. But, we all know who would win that one.
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Oh, and im just messing around with FlightSafety... i respect them ALOT more than PanAm. PanAm is just money gouging.

I really wish panam had the koreans and chinese learn to speak english before they came here. The only know like two words.

Ivan
 
Re: From AOPA

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I really wish panam had the koreans and chinese learn to speak english before they came here. The only know like two words.

Ivan

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What I find interesting is that you want the foreign flight students to learn to speak English "before they came here", yet it seems you're having a difficult time mastering the language yourself. Have you ever written a coherent paragraph with proper punctuation? If so, you didn't show it with your previous post. This isn't Journalism 501, but since you decided to criticize others...
 
Re: From AOPA

On Friday I saw the story of Pan Am closing the FPR campus on the local news so I guess I should post what I know.

The instructors were told of the closing last Monday around 2:00 in the afternoon. Most of us were out flying or at lunch, and didn't hear about it until we ran into our co-workers. When I was told by two other instructors I thought it was a joke. I think I was more upset by the way the news was delivered. The students found out the same day at a student meeting at 4:00. The FPR campus is closing, and they are going to move everything to the DVT campus. The closing should be complete by the end of July.

So here's the deal for instructors:
Pan Am is going to combine each of the two locations seniority lists into one list.
Then they are going to meet with each instructor individualy to determine his/her future.
I have already recieved an offer letter to continue teaching in the HAU/Korean Airlines program at DVT. The students will move at times that make sense, such as my class will go in three months when they finish their instrument training. Other classes will go at similar times during breaks in their training. Talk is Pan Am is going to pay for moving the instructors, but that is not written in stone yet.

For students:
Regular domestic students have a similar option, depending where they are in their training. In order to encourage these students to stay at Pan Am and move to DVT, Pan Am is offering discounts on the remainder of their training. Something like 10%.(or more Im not sure) If the student does not want to move, they can leave the program, without any penalty. (no $2000 fine for leaving)

Brand new CFI's waiting for students are in the worst shape. They will be at the bottom of the seniority list, which means a long wait for students, and they have very low times, which means a hard time finding another instructing job.

I think the reason for the closure doesn't really matter. They gave the reason as being "fear of future hurricanes". We were hit hard, but we recovered. I've never heard of a business making decisions based on such a variable long range weather forcast. And if so, why didn't they think of this when they built the place? There must be something more to the reason, but we will never know, so I have just accepted the reality of it. To play devil's advocate with myself, Pan Am is going to continue to pay the lease on the buildings, and from what I hear the lease doesn't expire for another 12 years! So maybe they really are afraid of the tropical cyclones.
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The reason why Pan Am is still rebuilding after the hurricanes even though they are leaving is simple. Admin at this campus did not make the decision to close it. All they knew was to continue the rebuilding process. Besides, Pan Am doesn't own the building, so they probably didn't have a choice.



How this affects me can change with the decisions I make in the next month or two. Pan Am says that FPR is now the "primary campus" for job placement with the airlines. Piedmont and Eagle will be visiting the FPR campus "sometime soon". That is if you want a job there. And from what I hear, a lot of CFI's would rather wait, build more time and go somewhere a little better. I can do the same, move to DVT, finish my students out, and in 6 months from now I will have about 1400 hours and 300 multi. Or I could try to get on with Piedmont or Eagle with a lot less time. It is such a crap shoot who you try to work for, but you can make an educated decision and hope for the best.

It's kinda funny how things work out. My Dad worked for Pan American Airways in Miami. In the mid 70's (1976?) Pan Am decided to move HQ from Miami to New York. After 24 years of service they told my Dad in order to keep his job, he had to move with them. With 5 kids and a house he didn't want to move so he got the pink slip. You'd think I'd learn?
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Re: From AOPA

Well Turkey. Even though I'm not a supporter of PanAm and am in the enemy group that resides on the southwest corner of the field, let me say this.

I wish you all the best.

It will be much quieter without your traffic and some of your students awful radio protocol. (Not your students but some of PanAm's in general)
 
Re: From AOPA

After the storms last year, there was A LOT of damage done to some of my current and previous advertisers.

Arizona, strangely, while hot as heck in July has far more stable weather than Florida.

I couldn't imagine what the insurance rates jumped to in the area after getting hit twice in the same season. Probably to levels which are a lot more than students would be willing to pay.

It's a smart move, heck, I left Florida for Arizona as well back in 2000 and largely never looked back. Besides, we've got Disneyland, Las Vegas and the amazing "Ajo, AZ" if you're in the need for a tourist trap in the region!
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Re: From AOPA

Thanks for the description, Turk. I enjoyed the matter-of-fact way you presented it. Like any other job in aviation, you'll always come to a crossroads at some time. Mine came when I got layed off from my cargo job after the Teamsters at UPS went on strike......no UPS cargo going, no need for small feeder planes to haul non-existant cargo, hence said small feeder planes sitting on the ramp not flying and not making money, hence pink slips start from the bottom and up the seniority list til it got to me and eventually passed me. Company out of business shortly thereafter all due to some lazy-ass Teamsters striking for another $20/per wage raise, with reduction to a 10 hour work week and a 4 hour lunch, or some other similiar BS. But on the bright side of the issue, I likely wouldn't be where I am now, nor have experienced the things I have between then and now had that not happened. So in a sense, I guess it's all ball bearings.

Anyhow, like you said, you'll have some decisions to make at this crossroads. There's no way to know now what will be the outcome of either decision. Tough choice, but when you pick one, give it your all. I was unemployed for a good few months, only doing firefighting and getting about 2 flights a month until I got the gig I have now.

Take time to consider all your angles, and good luck with whichever decision you make. I'm sure you'll make the best one.
 
Re: From AOPA

"Teamsters striking for another $20/per wage raise, with reduction to a 10 hour work week and a 4 hour lunch, or some other similiar BS."

Ya know Mike, we all fight big brown the best way we know how. You've always seemed jaded that the UPS strike caused your career profile to change. A LOT of folks stepped up to the plate those two weeks, including me in my brown uniform walking the line at BFI. Before you knock the Teamsters and the UPS drivers, I'd challenge you to do the job they do for a week. I understand the crap they gotta put up with. If you put a sarcasm tag or one of those stupid smiley faces after your post, I could have left this alone. But you're way out of line with the four hour lunch and ten hour work week comment.

The teamsters strike, just like me failing ATC school, might have been the best thing that ever happened to you.....
 
Re: From AOPA

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"Teamsters striking for another $20/per wage raise, with reduction to a 10 hour work week and a 4 hour lunch, or some other similiar BS."

Ya know Mike, we all fight big brown the best way we know how. You've always seemed jaded that the UPS strike caused your career profile to change. A LOT of folks stepped up to the plate those two weeks, including me in my brown uniform walking the line at BFI. Before you knock the Teamsters and the UPS drivers, I'd challenge you to do the job they do for a week. I understand the crap they gotta put up with. If you put a sarcasm tag or one of those stupid smiley faces after your post, I could have left this alone. But you're way out of line with the four hour lunch and ten hour work week comment.

The teamsters strike, just like me failing ATC school, might have been the best thing that ever happened to you.....

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No need to leave anything alone, this is a good conversation.

My thoughts were of how I felt at the time it was going on. To be fair, you had to have been able to see our side of the equation in that mess too, again at that time. Back then from our side of the ramp, it was tough to understand why someone else's problem(s) were rapidly becoming our problems. Why someone else's complaints about their company that they worked for (rightly or wrongly), and the fallout from that, put many of us out on the street. Why is it that their problems became our problems? How was that fair? Or was it OK since they're Teamsters and we're not....look out for number 1 and all? I was never told that getting the shaft over someone else's gripes and complaints about their own company was the dark side of "paying one's dues" in moving up the aviation ladder. At the end of their strike, they all went back to work, while most of us didn't. I could've cared less what their bitches and complaints were about, just as much as their fallout to my and my fellow pilot's and mech's livlihoods were of no concern to them.

So who was right here in this situation? I guess it depended on the perspective one happened to be looking at the situation with, and what interests lied therein. I would watch the UPS jet pull in, the crew deplane to walk the picket line for a while, then emplane again to fly their mission. Always wondered back then how much they were being affected by everything, if at all. At least they got to get back on a plane, while every day after the first 2 weeks, another pilot I flew with was let go. So take a look at it from my perspective in order to understand where I'm coming from. In my positon at the time, me and my fellow pilots didn't have it as easy and as cush, knowing we could picket, and still be back to work later since our jobs were protected. Life was a little different on the other side of the fence (other side of the airport).

Again, I'm telling you what me and my fellow crews were feeling at the time when we saw our ranks getting rapidly depleted over someone else's labor dispute that had not a damn thing to do with us. And since the Teamster drivers were making equal or better money than what we were, as compared to the amount of brain cells and training it took to do our respective jobs for what we were getting paid, and you can understand why many of us felt the way we did at the time.

But like I told Turk, we all come to a crossroads in our careers. For me, you're absolutely right, I wouldn't be where I am were it not partly for the strike. But there was no way I could've known that back then. Back then, all I had was what I was seeing happen. For some of our guys, things worked out, like me. For others, they never recovered, never found another opportunity that worked for them, and/or just left the biz. Some survived, others didn't. Do I credit the Teamsters for getting me to where I am? Not really. I think it was just chance and coincidence. Who's to say I would've gotten the opportunity I have now even after I was layed off?

I know where I am now, and take it for what it's worth. But I'm honest with myself and others as to what my feelings were back then when things were going on, as viewed from my side of the fence. And IMO, my side of the fence and my perspective is no more right nor wrong than the side and perspective of those on the other side of the fence; no sarcasm tag nor smiley faces. It was what it was, for better or for worse.

I guess everyone had their priorities. In the end, all the drivers and box throwers went back to work, business as usual; while we were busy vacating our building and ferrying our planes on their last flights to Goodyear or Tucson for storage while holding on to our last paychecks.....us likely considered nothing more than "collateral damage", I guess, if thought of at all.

It's exactly this kind of situation that makes me skeptical of the "let's all band together as one against management" crowd. Good concept, but the reality is, when the ship is sinking and it comes down to each groups competing interests, I get the feeling that the "good concept for us" will give way to "what's good for me".

I would hope I'm wrong.
 
Re: From AOPA

"I would watch the UPS jet pull in, the crew deplane to walk the picket line for a while, then emplane again to fly their mission."

You gotta be kidding me? The only UPS crews flying during the strike were management. That's a fact. We weren't allowed on the property. Not one IPA pilot flew during the strike. Some didn't want to come picket and sat at home, but NONE, bar none, flew during the strike.

So, management pilots joined the picket line? I could see them cross the picket line and maybe even chat for a few moments with a line pilot they knew, but to say they "walked the picket line". I really don't believe that, and gotta figure there is another explanation for what you think you saw. Did you see this happen at PHX?

"Teamster drivers were making equal or better money than what we were, as compared to the amount of brain cells and training it took to do our respective jobs"

Another silly slam against UPS drivers. You don't need a college degree to be a package car driver, other than that, they are very hard working folks and I think deserve to make a great living for it. Being in a union helps them do that.

Other than that, I agree with what you say. Life isn't fair. This career is less fair than life, sometimes. Collateral damage is a good way to put it. Had I been in your shoes, perhaps I'd have seen the issue differently than I do now. Had you been in mine, you may have had a different opinion than you do now, also.
 
Re: From AOPA

I hate to ask this, but can another thread about this be started elsewhere?

I don't mind the continuation of the conversation - it's really interesting...but it doesn't really belong in the PA forum.
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Re: From AOPA

Mike,

I'm a former driver (with a deficient brain cell count.
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) who walked back in 97. Anyone who paid even the slightest attention that year KNEW we were going on strike. I told every customer of mine that was not paying attention that it was going to happen; make contingency plans NOW. Certainly you or your management team at the time knew what was going down. Maybe you were an optimist and felt a last minute save was going to happen. (nothing wrong with that; the world needs more optimists). I'm sorry that your career at the time was derailed, but that doesn't mean that we walked for our own amusement, without good reason. I know you don't care now, but it was NOT over dissatisfaction with our hourly rate of pay or bennies. That's what happens in a unionized business; your resolve as employees, your resolve as management and your resolve as vendors/customers are put to the test. That year, we "won" the battle, due to our resolve and our IPA bro's support. Who knows, 2008 may be a different story. I was able to go back to work and continue to prosper. Sorry it didn't work out for you at the time.

As far as the amount of brain power required to do the job, let's just say it's certainly on a different level. It's useless to argue with the pilot ego(having one myself
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. After all, we're bulletproof, omniscient and all knowing. It's easy to look down on the knuckle dragging teamsters or landscapers or garbage men. The UPS job requires an intense level of concentration in a very difficult and challenging environment. Just the physical demands of the job alone scare off many aspiring drivers. They are a different breed; I did it for 10 years and am in awe of the 30 year guys.

To each his own, I guess. Good luck to you sir and your future career in the service of our great country.
 
Re: From AOPA

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"I would watch the UPS jet pull in, the crew deplane to walk the picket line for a while, then emplane again to fly their mission."

You gotta be kidding me? The only UPS crews flying during the strike were management. That's a fact. We weren't allowed on the property. Not one IPA pilot flew during the strike. Some didn't want to come picket and sat at home, but NONE, bar none, flew during the strike.

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As I understood it at the time, the big planes were still flying with the management crews. I watched a crew pull in, deplane, and go towards the picketing where they hung out for a while until having to leave for something else. Did I see them carrying a sign? No. They might have been just shooting the breeze or something, I don't really know, and can't say for sure.

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So, management pilots joined the picket line? I could see them cross the picket line and maybe even chat for a few moments with a line pilot they knew, but to say they "walked the picket line". I really don't believe that, and gotta figure there is another explanation for what you think you saw. Did you see this happen at PHX?

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Yeah, I saw what I described above, and my use of "walked the line" was a little unclear. They were a 767 crew, and they were walking along with some of the strikers, maybe chatting or whatnot. That's a better, more specific description of me saying "walked the line".

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"Teamster drivers were making equal or better money than what we were, as compared to the amount of brain cells and training it took to do our respective jobs"

Another silly slam against UPS drivers. You don't need a college degree to be a package car driver, other than that, they are very hard working folks and I think deserve to make a great living for it. Being in a union helps them do that.

Other than that, I agree with what you say. Life isn't fair. This career is less fair than life, sometimes. Collateral damage is a good way to put it. Had I been in your shoes, perhaps I'd have seen the issue differently than I do now. Had you been in mine, you may have had a different opinion than you do now, also.

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Again, I'm not trying to slam anyone; just trying to describe how the feelings were over where we were at the time. I'm certain there was a ton going on behind the scenes we likely didn't know about. And you're absolutely right Don, life isn't fair, and timing is everything in this business. That's why I can look back today, and recognize what I felt then and put into some better perspective. Many times, when I talk about the situation back then on the forum here, I speak from the tense of how I was feeling back then, not necessarily how I feel about it now; so many times, it'll come off as I feel like sour grapes still about it. That's not my intention. My only intent is to speak from the historical perspective, that's all.
 
Re: From AOPA

My apologies, Kristie, I just want to give Don and Snapdeuce the courtesy of a reply to their posts, then I'll drop it.....

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Mike,

I'm a former driver (with a deficient brain cell count.
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) who walked back in 97. Anyone who paid even the slightest attention that year KNEW we were going on strike. I told every customer of mine that was not paying attention that it was going to happen; make contingency plans NOW. Certainly you or your management team at the time knew what was going down. Maybe you were an optimist and felt a last minute save was going to happen. (nothing wrong with that; the world needs more optimists). I'm sorry that your career at the time was derailed, but that doesn't mean that we walked for our own amusement, without good reason. I know you don't care now, but it was NOT over dissatisfaction with our hourly rate of pay or bennies. That's what happens in a unionized business; your resolve as employees, your resolve as management and your resolve as vendors/customers are put to the test. That year, we "won" the battle, due to our resolve and our IPA bro's support. Who knows, 2008 may be a different story. I was able to go back to work and continue to prosper. Sorry it didn't work out for you at the time.

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That's fair. And it's good to hear your perspective on the issue from your side of the fence. Like I said, your perspective from then is no more right or wrong than the perspective we had on our side of the fence. You guys had your perspective with what you knew then, and we had ours. Unfortunately, we never really had the opportunity to get together and talk and trade war stories. At that time there may have been more understanding on the subject, but our management told us to "not get involved", so we didn't then.

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As far as the amount of brain power required to do the job, let's just say it's certainly on a different level. It's useless to argue with the pilot ego(having one myself
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. After all, we're bulletproof, omniscient and all knowing. It's easy to look down on the knuckle dragging teamsters or landscapers or garbage men. The UPS job requires an intense level of concentration in a very difficult and challenging environment. Just the physical demands of the job alone scare off many aspiring drivers. They are a different breed; I did it for 10 years and am in awe of the 30 year guys.

To each his own, I guess. Good luck to you sir and your future career in the service of our great country.

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Again, like I told Don, I was relating the feelings of our side from back then, based on the info we had. Can you believe it's been 9 years ago already since all that? It's all good now, guys. We all live and learn, and Don related, timing is everything and crossroads will always come along.
 
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