Should spins be put back on PTS for private?

Holocene he is referring to wear and tear on the gyros. We talked about this earlier on the forum. You can dissconnect the gyro system but I doubt he will let you do that. When a certain bank/pitch (usually between 100-110 degress of bank and and 60-70 degress of pitch) is reached your attitude indicator will tumble do to the limits of the gimbals inside the attitude indicator being reached. This is hard on the instrument. As for how much attitude is lost during a fully developed spin it all depends on the airplane. In a Cessna 140 its around 600 feet for a 3 turn spin if stopped immediately after 1080 degress of rotation. I've done *spins* in 150/152 also and they probally are close to 1000 feet but its not actually a spin. If you read up about the spin chararterstics of 150/152 they dont really spin. Instead they enter into a spiral dive after one turn and gain speed very fast. http://www.mpaviation.com/lesson9.htm (good site talking bout the difficulty of spinning a 152) In a true spin the nose of the aircraft will be going up and down gentially and rotation will be stabilzed while the speed will remain low. I would suggest finding a airplane that can go into a true spin not a spiral dive to learn spin recovery.
 
T-cart your right on the money. Reminds me of a article I read in the last AOPA issue about practicing the controversial turn back to the runway after engine loss maneuver. In their it talks about the differences between real life and practice and recomends adding a 300 foot buffer for the real life event. Same thing I would reccomend here. Take the attitude loss you experience during intentional spins and add 300 feet and thats probally about what you would loss in a real life event.
 
ppragman true you arent required to wear them but in most cases seems to make the student feel alittle more at ease. I bought them because I am getting into acro so I just figured why not use them since I have them.
 
ppragman said:
Why, you don't need a parachute to do spins.
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AC 61-67 is a great resource for spins / stalls if it hasn't been mentioned before.

91.307 states

Sec. 91.307 - 91

(a) No pilot of a civil aircraft may allow a parachute that is available for emergency use to be carried in that aircraft unless it is an approved type and --
(1) If a chair type (canopy in back), it has been packed by a certificated and appropriately rated parachute rigger within the preceding 120 days; or
(2) If any other type, it has been packed by a certificated and appropriately rated parachute rigger --
(i) Within the preceding 120 days, if its canopy, shrouds, and harness are composed exclusively of nylon, rayon, or other similar synthetic fiber or materials that are substantially resistant to damage from mold, mildew, or other fungi and other rotting agents propagated in a moist environment; or
(ii) Within the preceding 60 days, if any part of the parachute is composed of silk, pongee, or other natural fiber, or materials not specified in paragraph (a)(2)(i) of this section.
(b) Except in an emergency, no pilot in command may allow, and no person may conduct, a parachute operation from an aircraft within the United States except in accordance with part 105 of this chapter.
(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds --
(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or
(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.
(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to --
(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or
(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by --
(i) A certificated flight instructor; or
(ii) An airline transport pilot instructing in accordance with §61.67 of this chapter.
(e) For the purposes of this section, approved parachute means --
(1) A parachute manufactured under a type certificate or a technical standard order (C-23 series); or
(2) A personnel-carrying military parachute identified by an NAF, AAF, or AN drawing number, an AAF order number, or any other military designation or specification number.
<small>[Doc. No. 18334, 54 FR 34308, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 91-255, 62 FR 68137, Dec. 30, 1997; Amdt. 91-268, 66 FR 23553, May 9, 2001] </small>





Thus, the private pilot area's of operations do not require spins...so yes you tech would have to wear a parachute. However how most get around this reg is to say it is just training in advance for their CFI rating that they will eventually be working towards.
 
Personally I have to go against most of you. I personally believe it needs to be left out of the PTS. When they did have this in the PTS its proven through the FAA and especially in Canada that there were a high number of accidents (fatal) due to private pilots going up and showing their friends how to do a spin in an airplane. Number of the pilots over stressed the aircraft frame and caused them to lose control.

Now its a different story for a REAL experienced CFI who is always up to date showing a student how to spin a plane. Keep in mind some FBO's do not get many students and some CFI's do not even fly all that often. I personally would go up once in a while when i was in FL and spin to keep up with it. However there are some CFI's out there I personally would not want teaching even myself, a cfi, how to get out of a spin. Its a risky business if not done properly. Thus why we only make CFI's do spin training in the US. And for me that's the way I believe it should remain.
 
meyers9163 said:
Personally I have to go against most of you. I personally believe it needs to be left out of the PTS. When they did have this in the PTS its proven through the FAA and especially in Canada that there were a high number of accidents (fatal) due to private pilots going up and showing their friends how to do a spin in an airplane. Number of the pilots over stressed the aircraft frame and caused them to lose control.

Now its a different story for a REAL experienced CFI who is always up to date showing a student how to spin a plane. Keep in mind some FBO's do not get many students and some CFI's do not even fly all that often. I personally would go up once in a while when i was in FL and spin to keep up with it. However there are some CFI's out there I personally would not want teaching even myself, a cfi, how to get out of a spin. Its a risky business if not done properly. Thus why we only make CFI's do spin training in the US. And for me that's the way I believe it should remain.
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I tend to agree with you. You put some good stress on an airplane during the recovery if it is done incorrectly. Like many have said before if you get in a spin base to final it is to late. It would be very difficult to recover. The student just needs to release the causes and clues of a spin and make sure not to get in one.
 
meyers I do agree with you. I would say I have ment more CFI's that aren't capable to teach it properly then I have ment that are. As far as pilots taking their friends up and spinning the plane to show them how cool it is I think you will have that no matter what. I mean if they have that show boating attitude they are already inclined to push their own limits. JHugz your right when it comes to the intrepitation of the regulation. That is the common one that I do hear. But like any law it isnt black and white. Intrepitations of regulations vary from FSDO to FSDO. I have even been told two different intrepitations from two different guys in the same FSDO. So I guess better be safe than sorry. I guess I am just more inclined towards spins because I love acro. If you haven't read my aerobatics thread I am trying to get into the compeition/airshow business. So my opinion on this is biased.
 
I admit I don't have a ton of spins under my belt but many more than most.
In many of the airplanes we fly to demonstrate(c-150) spins, it is harder to keep the airplane in the spin than to get them out. As you know if you just let go of the c-150 it will want to start flying again. I don't see a problem showing as student a stall/spin but I do agree that making a low time pilot very comfortable in a spin can be dangerous.
 
Holocene said:
Where I rent a 172, the chief instructor said he would not allow spin demonstrations in his planes due to "abuse" of the attitude indicator.
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Sounds like Rob. You know, if you want to do some spin training, just talk to him. He has access to most types of aircraft and either he or Pat would gladly do it with you.
 
mattp1803 said:
My instructor used to always tell me it took 1,000 feet to recover. It always did seem a little dramatic, but I guess I took his word for it. Do you or does anyone here know how many feet it takes to recover a full developed spin? I'm curious on this one.
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It depends on the plane. The Mooney M20J Manual states you will lose 2000ft in a ONE full rotation spin.
 
Basically its telling you that your airplane will fall like a rock:) Same thing with my cherokee. Do to the hershey bar wings if it loses lift it drops like a rock. Theres no such thing as a power off greasier landing.
 
The Hershey bar wing is an interesting airfoil. I hated flying the arrow. The archer/warrior tapered wing is great. I have 200 +/- hrs in the archer. Flying the arrow, I like to explain it as such...cut the power, it becomes a smooth rock!:D
 
Right on mooneyguy haha. Learned it the hard way myself. Up to that point had only flown the entire Cessna family which I routinely do power off landings in. Learned real fast in the Cherokee though that when you pull that power you aren't gliding anymore you are falling lol. Love the plane though.
 
Holocene said:
Where I rent a 172, the chief instructor said he would not allow spin demonstrations in his planes due to "abuse" of the attitude indicator.
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He is right and this is why I would disconnect all the gyros prior to a spin demonstration flight. Day VFR right?
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
He is right and this is why I would disconnect all the gyros prior to a spin demonstration flight. Day VFR right?
Click to expand...

Correct. And I'm assuming that "disconnecting" the gyros can only be accomplished by first removing the instrument from the panel??? Or are there access panels somewhere that simplify this process?
 
Holocene said:
Correct. And I'm assuming that "disconnecting" the gyros can only be accomplished by first removing the instrument from the panel??? Or are there access panels somewhere that simplify this process?
Click to expand...

Depends on the aircraft but usually you can do the Paris Hilton maneuver (legs up in the air and head under the yoke) and disconnect the instruments from the back. A little tight on a 152 though, sometimes I just took them out.

Process takes like 5-10 minutes.
 
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