Should spins be put back on PTS for private?

Inverted25

Well-Known Member
I'd like to get some peoples opinion on whether or not spins should be put back onto the PTS for the PPL. I personally believe that it should. There is a big difference between reading about and being told how to recover from a spin and actually going out there and doing it. I can speak from experience the first few times I did spins even though I knew all the proper control inputs I still almost stalled the airplane into a 2nd spin after recovery. It is just like anything else you need to practice it so that when it happens you know how to recover from it in a timely and correct manner. I mean would you feel safe if instead of showing students how to recover from stalls we just told them how and hoped they never encountered it in real life? I'm interested to see what other people think on this and I'm curious how many of you have any spin training yourself.
 

SpiraMirabilis

Possible Subversive
I tend to agree. I demonstrated spins for all my private students and then had them recover from one just so that they are demystified. I don't think the decision to remove spins from the PTS was very well thought out either, it was kind of a knee jerk reaction. I believe most other countries still require spin training for private pilots.
 

Inverted25

Well-Known Member
Yea I am not to sure why it was removed either I am trying to find some insight into that. Haven't found much behind the decision but I am still looking. I think its great that you show your students. It better then them just going up one day and trying to do what they read in a book. I have encountered some resistance to this from airplane owners though. Mostly saying that they dont want to mess up their gyros. And I understand that airplane parts are expensive. Lucky here where I fly we have a Cessna 140 taildragger that has no gyros in it:nana2: But for those who dont have the ability to jump in a plane with no gyros you can disconnect your gyros to practice spins its not all that difficult. Keep the post coming!
 
R

Roger, Roger

Guest
Maybe yes, maybe no. The thing is, teaching them to RECOVER from spins is nearly useless. If you look at where fatal stall/spin accidents occur, they are at altitudes where there is no chance of recovering if a spin is allowed to develop. People very seldom spin in from altitude, especially in something like a modern 172 that recovers if you let go of the controls. What really needs to be hammered in to students is spin avoidance: don't stall the airplane at low altitudes and learn how to properly use the rudder.
 

Hacker15e

Dunning–Kruger Observer
I agree it should be put back in. Personally, I think there should be even more than that. A requirement for some "baby acro" (e.g. loops, rolls -- just one flight) would get new pilots introduced to being in unusual attitudes.

Just like spin training, it would keep them from being surprised when something happens in wake turbulence or extreme windshear.
 

WacoFan

Bigly
I have heard that President Obama is going to outlaw every GA airplane except the Ercoupe, making spins obsolete.
 

WacoFan

Bigly
I agree it should be put back in. Personally, I think there should be even more than that. A requirement for some "baby acro" (e.g. loops, rolls -- just one flight) would get new pilots introduced to being in unusual attitudes.

Just like spin training, it would keep them from being surprised when something happens in wake turbulence or extreme windshear.
I agree completely with this.
 
R

Roger, Roger

Guest
Just to clarify..I do think private students should be shown spins so that they have a good idea of how they happen and how bad they are if you are close to the ground. I'm just not sure about putting it as a performance item on the PTS. I guess that there's plenty of other things that kill private pilots that we can spend our time focusing on.
 

Douglas

Old School KSUX
For my students it doesn't matter much because I do spin all of my private applicants. BUT, there are a lot of people that don't ever see a spin, so I would vote for reinstatement. Truthfully I would like to keep it the way it is, I show them spins on my own time and they don't need to fly them to PTS on a Check-ride.

I was like you, I could talk a mean game on how to get out of spin so I found an instructor who would actually spin me and after I put myself in the first spin, I didn't do anything, I didn't even breath until the instructor took over.
"dude?....Recover!....Recover dude!....dude Recover, my controls"
The second spin was easy, it was just the initial shock of what a spin actually was.
So ever since then, none of my students get away without a spinning.

EDIT: from what I heard from the FSDO on my checkride when I asked them, they said it was killing too many people in training and there wasn't enough evidence that showed of a big enough benefit for the number of accidents caused by it. That is when the switched to stall recognition, prevention and recovery.
 

Hacker15e

Dunning–Kruger Observer
EDIT: from what I heard from the FSDO on my checkride when I asked them, they said it was killing too many people in training and there wasn't enough evidence that showed of a big enough benefit for the number of accidents caused by it. That is when the switched to stall recognition, prevention and recovery.
While I understand that this makes sense from a "promoting aviation" point of view, we all ready have "licenses" like sport and recreation that people can obtain if they don't want to go all out.

I think if you want a PPL, it should include upset training/acro/spins.
 

Boris Badenov

Just running in to a burning house...
Yes. Obviously. The people who died in the late '70s in spin training (when this was decided, as I understand it) largely did so because they were flying planes the FAA failed to certify properly (traumahawk w/bendy wing, for example, which wasn't the same wing they'd certified originally).

Today's pilots seem far too often to think they're playing "Flight Simulator" and don't have any notion of "flying the wing". Not saying I'm Bob Hoover, by the way, but I have at least a nodding acquaintance with most bad things an airplane can do if you're dumb and let it do them.
 

mattp1803

Well-Known Member
Maybe yes, maybe no. The thing is, teaching them to RECOVER from spins is nearly useless. If you look at where fatal stall/spin accidents occur, they are at altitudes where there is no chance of recovering if a spin is allowed to develop. People very seldom spin in from altitude, especially in something like a modern 172 that recovers if you let go of the controls. What really needs to be hammered in to students is spin avoidance: don't stall the airplane at low altitudes and learn how to properly use the rudder.
:yeahthat:

What does it take 1,000 feet to recover from a spin? You are exactly right, most the time a real life spin happens (unintended) because you are low and slow approaching to land, and were not coordinated, stalled, and the aircraft enters a spin. In most cases if you enter a real life spin in this situation, you are not going to recover before you hit the ground.

I do think it's very important to teach spin recovery regardless. All it takes is asking your students periodically how to recover from a spin, and have them walk you through it step by step, that way you know they know.
 

tlewis95

I drive planes
Today's pilots seem far too often to think they're playing "Flight Simulator" and don't have any notion of "flying the wing". Not saying I'm Bob Hoover, by the way, but I have at least a nodding acquaintance with most bad things an airplane can do if you're dumb and let it do them.
:yeahthat:
 

ASpilot2be

Qbicle seat warmer
I think it would be a good idea.

Our friends to the north, my west, Canada requires students to learn spins pre-solo:)
 

TGatch

Well-Known Member
I think it should be taught. I'm glad I was shown spins. The first time I freaked out too, but it is true most spins happen when we're low and slow.
 

BrewMaster

Well-Known Member
Yeah I heard GA is going away all together....not even a Ercoupe:rolleyes:
Aw man, it's already gone.......sorry, that's just my eternal pessimist talking.

I vote....I don't really care. I guess I can see it both ways. Once upon a time my instructor told me that too many freshly awarded PP's were going out with their girlfriends, not fully understand the aerodynamics or intricasies of a stall, and killing themselves. I don't think it is a bad idea to show them, but teaching should probably be kept for another day.
 

cool92092

Well-Known Member
Showing spins is a great benefit to inexperienced aviators because most people don't know how they will react initially. I knew everything about spins and spin recovery when I was first shown a spin, and froze up because it was 100% unlike anything I could've imagined. I had a CFI candidate that needed a spin endorsement and experienced his first spin with the same blank stare.
I don't think that it should be turned into a PTS item that requires constant training to meet heading airspeed and altitude restrictions. If you are really interested in spin training get an aerobatic instructor and an aerobatic plane and let them teach you accelerated spins, inverted spins, flat spins, etc... I really don't thinks it's the greatest idea to have CFI's without the experience in aerobatics & upset recovery go out and become spin masters. just my humble opinion...
 

ozone

Well-Known Member
Maybe yes, maybe no. The thing is, teaching them to RECOVER from spins is nearly useless. If you look at where fatal stall/spin accidents occur, they are at altitudes where there is no chance of recovering if a spin is allowed to develop. People very seldom spin in from altitude, especially in something like a modern 172 that recovers if you let go of the controls. What really needs to be hammered in to students is spin avoidance: don't stall the airplane at low altitudes and learn how to properly use the rudder.

:yeahthat: That's the explanation I have heard from my instructor for my PPL. That said, my instructor also commented that spin training is helpful to know. So, with that in mind, I found this resource:

http://www.aerialadvantage.net/Courses.html
 

bdhill1979

Gone West
I demonstrate for all of my students.

I just remember when I did CFI spin training and had never been spun before that. The first one scared the Hell out of me, then once I had made the recovery all the ones after that were pretty fun.

I don't want their first sight of a spin to be one they actually need to recover from.

But I do think more emphasis needs to be put on rudder control, slow flight, stalls, and spin avoidance.
Make them do a few "Falling Leaf" stalls and rudder control comes up quick.
 
Top