Seriously people, it isn't that hard

PhilosopherPilot said:
What about when you aren't cognitively at 100%? (Long day, etc.) It isn't only complacency you have to guard against.
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There's procedures in place to help safely operate in the event you aren't there 100%. Look, I'm not saying I'm infallible. I already know I'm not. I've made my fair share of mistakes myself. I get worse in the summer because I HATE the heat. So everything becomes a long day for me when it's hot.

For instance. At my company we arm the reversers descending through FL180. It's then on the descent check for the PF to verify the reversers are armed. What if he/she isn't there 100% and just responds "armed" without actually verifying the EICAS, and they aren't armed. Going into a short runway. That's a safety concern. Did the PF just respond because they weren't 100% there? Or were they complacent? I would argue complacent because 99.99999999% of the time they are armed, and you verify they are, so now you (generic - not you actually) don't actually verify and just respond with the proper checklist response.

We have had some slow speed events. Maybe they happened because the crew wasn't there 100%. We now have procedures in place in case that happens. There's now a required checklist and required calls from the PM incase the PF isn't all there.

Again, I will say I think it's very easy to become complacent.
 
I've tried to line up with both battle creek instead of kalamazoo as well as YIP instead of DTW. Thankfully, I always keep distance to threshold at the ready and always always always back it up with the best guidance available.

Now, anytime I fly to an outstation, I draw a 5 mile ring around the runway threshold. That's my 1500 AFE foot checkpoint... either I'm high and trying to get down to that ring, or far more importantly, don't go below 1500 until I'm inside that ring!

Give yourself as many options to unstupid yourself because invariably the stupid will show up from time to time.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
I've tried to line up with both battle creek instead of kalamazoo as well as YIP instead of DTW. Thankfully, I always keep distance to threshold at the ready and always always always back it up with the best guidance available.

Now, anytime I fly to an outstation, I draw a 5 mile ring around the runway threshold. That's my 1500 AFE foot checkpoint... either I'm high and trying to get down to that ring, or far more importantly, don't go below 1500 until I'm inside that ring!

Give yourself as many options to unstupid yourself because invariably the stupid will show up from time to time.
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I'll have to try that next time I fly.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
I've tried to line up with both battle creek instead of kalamazoo as well as YIP instead of DTW. Thankfully, I always keep distance to threshold at the ready and always always always back it up with the best guidance available.

Now, anytime I fly to an outstation, I draw a 5 mile ring around the runway threshold. That's my 1500 AFE foot checkpoint... either I'm high and trying to get down to that ring, or far more importantly, don't go below 1500 until I'm inside that ring!

Give yourself as many options to unstupid yourself because invariably the stupid will show up from time to time.
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To me, this approach (no pun intended), seems a little over cautious. But I can't fault you for that.
 
B767 said:
When doing a visual backed up with the box, do you put an altitude in at the 5 mile fix?
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No. It does it for us. It generates a "snowflake" (vertical guidance similar to a glide slope), so it's a lot like an ILS. They built RJ's for wet behind the ears dummies for the most part. Heck, they let me fly them.
 
Derg said:
I haven't read the factuals of it but, on the topic of visuals, a couple things I brief:

You're not to call the airport in sight unless we BOTH independently see the airport and are willing to risk our careers on it. I've had too many cocksure copilots call DTW in sight and I say, "point at the airport" "…that's Ypsilanti" far more often than you'd think.

"Report airport in sight" just means that "I'm tired of controlling you, take over responsibility for separation, wake turbulence avoidance and vectoring, AMMA hafta scratch my nether regions and I gotta step back from the scope for a second" :)

My rant is over, I'll check out the specifics of this event.
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What arrival to what runway does this happen? Been to DTW a lot. Can't see this happening.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
In the wintertime with slightly reduced visibility and the sun right in your face.... hey, @Derg , AMIRITE?!
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Yup, this is exactly how it happens. You're cut loose on the POLAR while following traffic (that you, for some reason, called in sight), when it's the wrong traffic (Connie takes 747's into YIP), and the orientation looks close enough.

Hell I can see how someone could mistake Hawthorne for LAX while flying into the sun. Or #2 for SLC. Or taxiway Zulu for 29R in EWR.

There are threats everywhere, and I start to get concerned when someone's first response isn't "dude, I could have done the exact same thing."

We need to start teaching better CRM at the regionals.
 
jtrain609 said:
Yup, this is exactly how it happens. You're cut loose on the POLAR while following traffic (that you, for some reason, called in sight), when it's the wrong traffic (Connie takes 747's into YIP), and the orientation looks close enough.

Hell I can see how someone could mistake Hawthorne for LAX while flying into the sun. Or #2 for SLC. Or taxiway Zulu for 29R in EWR.

There are threats everywhere, and I start to get concerned when someone's first response isn't "dude, I could have done the exact same thing."

We need to start teaching better CRM at the regionals.
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I respect that. That is a problem when someone says "it can't happen to me." I've only seen one person say that on this thread though. And, once again, I don't care enough to go back and look to see if it were more. The point I was arguing is that you said it's really easy to land at the wrong airport. If one realizes it can happen to them, they follow company procedures and possibly go above and beyond (like adding a 5 mile ring, or using the visual in the box, etc) to mitigate that threat. Can it still happen? Yes. But it's not "really easy." I just read your post last night as "it's a friggin miracle airlines don't land at the wrong airport way more often. We should be applauded for landing at the right airport because it's so easy to land at the wrong airport." Internet context though, so, yea.

Different note. What could be taught differently/better at the regional level in reassess to CRM? What do you want to see improved?
 
Ol Clark has called the AFB in GEG in sight during a medical emergency, thankfully ATC corrected us. Also saw the airport that the 9L guys landed at by accident down in LCH and we had a little debate thinking it was LCH. Thankfully we realized it wasn't and continued on but it can certainly happen to anyone at any time.
 
ClarkGriswold said:
Ol Clark has called the AFB in GEG in sight during a medical emergency, thankfully ATC corrected us. Also saw the airport that the 9L guys landed at by accident down in LCH and we had a little debate thinking it was LCH. Thankfully we realized it wasn't and continued on but it can certainly happen to anyone at any time.
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They laid up for the water hazard.
 
B767 said:
Meh. I'd argue against that. It's really hard, in fact impossible, to land at the wrong airport following company and FAR requirements.

It becomes easy to do when one becomes complacent. And yes, it can be really easy to become complacent. Is that what you're referring to? The complacency?
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I agree with your sentiment overall, but also recognize that I've been in situations before where I've been doing the best of my ability to do things the way we are supposed to and still screwed up.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
I agree with your sentiment overall, but also recognize that I've been in situations before where I've been doing the best of my ability to do things the way we are supposed to and still screwed up.
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I'm biased in my argument. I haven't been in situations like that yet. Every situation where I've screwed up, I look back and say "yea. That's on me. I became complacent and wasn't doing my best." Which is why I say it's easy to be complacent. I've been there. Never have I experienced a situation where I was at my best, things got a little skewed, and I couldn't do much about it. I have always found somewhere I could've done better. So I revert to blaming myself as being complacent at the time.

Probably my upbringing though. Whenever I talk to my dad the last thing he says before we hang up is "have fun flying. Don't be complacent." I just assume that if I screwed up then I wasn't at my best. There's somewhere to improve for next time. And usually it's glossing over something simple that ALWAYS happens on every day flights, but that one time I didn't...well...
 
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