Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule included

[Baronguy18]

Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

Why would it be stupid? It would demonstrate a real foundation of knowledge, rather than short term memory.

Making every single pilot go back and take multiple written tests before they could fly again isnt realistic.

 

[wrxpilot]

Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

Making every single pilot go back and take multiple written tests before they could fly again isnt realistic.

No, it isn't realistic. I also didn't propose that either.

A logical way to implement it would be to include a deadline, as the FAA does with every other requirement (English proficiency, replacing paper with plastic certificate, etc.).

Perhaps make the deadline Dec. 31, 2011 to fit in with the new SIC requirements?

 

[Baronguy18]

Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

No, it isn't realistic. I also didn't propose that either.

A logical way to implement it would be to include a deadline, as the FAA does with every other requirement (English proficiency, replacing paper with plastic certificate, etc.).

Perhaps make the deadline Dec. 31, 2011 to fit in with the new SIC requirements?

Still isnt logical to me but no point arguing about it now since it isnt actually happening

 

[BajtheJino]

Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

WTF that would be stupid..

Question, Why does the FAA allow companies like Gleim to have access to the questions word for word?

Yes, it would be stupid. I've known a few JAA guys and they do the same thing people over here do-memorize answers. Taking a bunch of written exams does not make us better as pilots. The only way "we" are going to make things better is to set the bar so high that's its very difficult for people to enter this profession. I don't see another way. If pilots push for legislation to force this industry to improve it will backfire and it will ruin whats left.

On the other hand I have no problem with Gleim or any other company having access to a question bank. Many different professions have the same thing going on. Lawyers, electricians, general contractors and government employees. I think its a good thing in a way-you know, using all available resources and all.

 

[Baronguy18]

Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

And besides....those who do just memorize the book for the written with no understanding of it at all, dont they get weeded out when it come time for the oral exam? I know the oral cant cover everything in the book but those who truly just memorize the written answers im sure wouldnt pass an oral.

 

[wrxpilot]

Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

Still isnt logical to me but no point arguing about it now since it isnt actually happening

Not happening yet, but who knows... BTW, have you ever seen the outlines for the JAA ATP written tests? It's amazing how much more relevant and logical they appear to be compared to the FAA ATP questions about Microwave Landing Systems and NDB approaches. If anybody here has firsthand experience with JAA tests, I'd be curious to know how relevant they thought they were.

 

[wrxpilot]

Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

On the other hand I have no problem with Gleim or any other company having access to a question bank. Many different professions have the same thing going on. Lawyers, electricians, general contractors and government employees. I think its a good thing in a way-you know, using all available resources and all.

When I took the FE (Fundamental of Engineering) exam (like the BAR exam for engineers), we had study/prep books for passing the tests, but the questions weren't the EXACT same questions on the test. Yes, they would cover questions on multi-variable calculus, dynamics, etc. But the prep was designed to allow on to truly understand the problem solving process, rather than rote memorization. There is NO WAY to memorize the FE test bank. The same can be accomplished with FAA written test procedures.

You think a more rigorous written test policy is "stupid", yet you then say:

The only way "we" are going to make things better is to set the bar so high that's its very difficult for people to enter this professionThe only way "we" are going to make things better is to set the bar so high that's its very difficult for people to enter this profession.

A more rigorous testing procedure is a very fair way to do this in my opinion, as it will reward motivated and intelligent applicants. Those are the type of people we want flying, right?

 

[wrxpilot]

Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

And besides....those who do just memorize the book for the written with no understanding of it at all, dont they get weeded out when it come time for the oral exam? I know the oral cant cover everything in the book but those who truly just memorize the written answers im sure wouldnt pass an oral.

If or when you gain more experience in professional aviation, you'll realize that this is a very subjective testing process that doesn't always work. Weak applicant will seek out the Santa Claus examiners.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, especially from some more vocal "pro-pilot" members like ATN_Pilot.......

You won't get flamed by me. I agree with you on half of it, actually. Where we disagree is on the importance of checking. But let's take it one part at a time:

1. Yes, I agree that hiring standards are a complete joke in this country. My interview at a major airline consisted of filling out some paperwork, telling some stories to a management pilot about flying, and telling some stories to an HR rep about customer service. That was it! No simulator evaluation, no knowledge test, no technical questions, nothing. Sadly, this has become the standard at airline interviews nowadays. The "tell me about a time..." question has replaced the real questions that determine aviation knowledge and competency. We've fostered an environment in which pilots can memorize some canned answers about pushing wheelchairs for passengers and getting along with a hard-ass captain, and that's all it takes to be a major airline pilot. It's sickening.

I want a return to the days of tough interviews with technical questions, written tests, and simulator evaluations. The touchy-feely BS that HR has created is a joke, and it doesn't help airlines to find the most qualified pilots.

From the certification aspect, I would like to see a system far more like the JAA, with comprehensive testing on theory as well as practice.

2. Where we disagree is on the issue of "checking." Checking, after you've been hired and finished newhire training or upgrade training, is a negative, in my opinion. The FAA has moved more towards AQP for a reason. Checking programs, rather than advanced training programs, encourage pilots to do nothing more than study the profiles for the week prior to their checking events. They memorize the V1 cut, the stalls, etc., and they ace them in the box, but then they don't look at them again for the next 6-12 months. This is no way to enhance safety at an airline.

AQP goes the completely opposite route. Instead of focusing on checking, AQP is focused on training. When you come in for your yearly ride (or 9 months, depending on your program), you have a non-jeopardy ride to go over the profiles, with training to make you better at them, then you have a LOFT session to go over events that have actually happened at your airline, and see how you would have handled it. It's a learning exercise, rather than a checking exercise. This enhances safety, and the FAA has been very pleased with the results of these programs. So much so that SWA and AirTran were the only major airlines to receive additional scrutiny last year after the Colgan crash, because we were the only major airlines to not have AQP and to still run a checking program under Subparts N & O.

Let's get away from the tired old notion of checkrides and move everyone in the industry towards AQP programs that enhance safety.

Apart from the requirement for a study, I haven't heard anything about it.

The FAA has already completed the Flight Time/Duty Time regulation NPRM, and it currently being vetted by the lawyers so it can be sent out. It should be out in a matter of weeks, and it's apparently more restrictive on some areas than the ARC's recommendations.

 

[deadstick]

Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

Consider the Army's rotary wing programs. The best sticks out there? Warrant Officers- who do not require four year degrees. They go to flight school and then fly as much as possible. The ones with the degrees? They get a 'full commission' and fly a desk, and occasionally strap on a helicopter and scare the snot out of Warrant Officers and enlisted crewmembers in the back. I know this from experience. I was one of the guys in the back.

Do you remember the 3 dangerous sayings in Army Aviation?

#1 A 2LT who says "In my experience...."
#2 A CWO who who says "Hey, watch this...." (Or "Oh ye of little faith...")
...I'm drawing a blank on #3

I'll throw this out, too. A front line utility pilot (UH60) was required to only fly 96 hours per year to be current and proficient. LTs, CPTs, WOs -- all had to fly the same mins. ALSO, not all LTs had to have a degree. I just don't think they'd make CPT without it, or maybe MAJ (it's been awhile). Likewise, I knew many WOs who did have college degrees. There are always exception to the norm.

 

[mshunter]

Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

You're right. There will be people who are discouraged to pursue the career, particularly if they know ahead of time that it's a long haul to get into the right seat of an airliner. 90-days from zero to RJ pilot will be a thing of the past, and that's the way it should be. And, when supply of pilots goes down, price of pilots goes up if conventional economic theory holds up.

I like your thought process, but I don't think it will hold true. Don't forget about the Koolaid the advertisers make. It will still be sold as a "get there faster" drink.

 

[400A]

Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

This is truly hilarious.

This Bill will do nothing to truly improve safety at the airlines. Nothing. Creating some arbitrary number for a minimum requirement--that I'd estimate 10% or less of all regional pilots were hired with--is ridiculous. Let's face it: Most regional pilots have been hired with over 1000 hours total time, yet we'll pretend it's the 300-hour wonders who are doing the industry a disservice.

We all come on here and spout off how we need to get better rest rules... Better working conditions... Better training... More money... More benefits. Yet in the same breath, we complain about our medical requirements, degree requirements, how hard a checkride was, and how tough that interview was. We want it all, but we don't want to work for it.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, especially from some more vocal "pro-pilot" members like ATN_Pilot, but our hiring and checking processes are weak. I've seen pilots who have fumbled their way through checkrides year after year who are still out there on the line. I've seen pilots who would collapse if they were made to run down the length of their aircraft's cabin, let alone a true test of physical competence. We want to be paid like doctors and lawyers, yet we shouldn't require a degree to be a professional pilot? Doctors and lawyers require years more school than pilots.

Now we'll hear how we go through years of extensive training to gain our ratings, and how tough it is... I'm sorry, but most pilots I've known spent a week memorizing the Gleim book, took a written test, and passed. We all know pilots who have had their hand held their entire career, and now sit in the cockpit of a 121 airline. Our training and testing here in the US is a JOKE.

The US Government is not going to step in and force this to be a profession again. WE are the only ones who can make that happen. However, that would require more stringent hiring requirements in terms of aptitude and knowledge, not some arbitrary number of hours. Until we are tougher on ourselves, we deserve what we get.

I hate this smiley but...:yeahthat:

I don't think we have a "professionalism" problem, I think we have a "bend over and take it" problem. There is absolutely no reason one cannot make a comfortable career out of a regional airline. The simple fact that we, as a group, look down our collective noses at a segment of this industry that does the EXACT same job as another segment is 99% of the problem.

 

[Ian_J]

Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

Consider the Army's rotary wing programs. The best sticks out there? Warrant Officers- who do not require four year degrees. They go to flight school and then fly as much as possible. The ones with the degrees? They get a 'full commission' and fly a desk, and occasionally strap on a helicopter and scare the snot out of Warrant Officers and enlisted crewmembers in the back. I know this from experience. I was one of the guys in the back.

This outdated stereotype, while admittedly fun to say, doesn't have much to do with who has a degree in the Army and who doesn't.

 

[mshunter]

Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

And what is wrong with that? Many parents pay for their children education, not just in aviation. I would hope to be able to pay for my son or daughters full college tuition when the time comes.

I agree with you. But you failed to see my point. My post was pointing at the sense of entitlement that some seem to have. I would love to pay for my sons education some day. But I had to, and am still having to pay for mine. I work my butt off for mine, and so it should be. There is more than one way to earn something. I am working with someone right now who has a rich daddy, but he is a good kid, and his father makes him earn his flight training. He gets good grades, and earns what he has. What I am talking about is those who don't care, and suck of of the teet for everything they have.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

And Colgan...

True, but I think Skybus really exemplifies the worst of the worst.

Established carriers like American and Southwest have been caught skirting maintenance issues on a broad scale- and look at their standards of operation apparent to the public eye.

.. when you look at Skybus, with their $10 fares.. you're forced to wonder how much we'll never know.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

The US Government is not going to step in and force this to be a profession again. WE are the only ones who can make that happen. However, that would require more stringent hiring requirements in terms of aptitude and knowledge, not some arbitrary number of hours. Until we are tougher on ourselves, we deserve what we get.

Agreed. Well said, really.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

! Not going to fly into ice in a 172 for 3 hours just to please the Senate.

Sounds like the easiest thing in the world to pencil whip to me...

 

[Firebird2XC]

Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

I want a return to the days of tough interviews with technical questions, written tests, and simulator evaluations. The touchy-feely BS that HR has created is a joke, and it doesn't help airlines to find the most qualified pilots.

...

The FAA has already completed the Flight Time/Duty Time regulation NPRM, and it currently being vetted by the lawyers so it can be sent out. It should be out in a matter of weeks, and it's apparently more restrictive on some areas than the ARC's recommendations.

Point of inquiry: At Colgan, my interview consisted of all the elements you suggested be included in an interview. Sim, test, hard technical questions, etc. My American Eagle interview included all but the written. Notable, however, was the fact that when my experience in TPs in the NE came to light, the questioning got easier.

Does the interview process get easier as an assumption of competency is made as one 'progresses through the industry', etc? Should a uniform, industry wide interview process be suggested? A test like that- one given at the hiring process- could be beneficial?

As for the fatigue rules: HOORAY!

Nice to see that coming to fruition. I was starting to think it was forever stalled. Score.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

This outdated stereotype, while admittedly fun to say, doesn't have much to do with who has a degree in the Army and who doesn't.

True, it's a stereotype, but it goes to show- you can't replace stick time with a degree, regardless of what it's in, and that was my underlying point.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Re: Senate Passes FAA Reauthorization Bill, 800 hr rule incl

Do you remember the 3 dangerous sayings in Army Aviation?

#1 A 2LT who says "In my experience...."
#2 A CWO who who says "Hey, watch this...." (Or "Oh ye of little faith...")
...I'm drawing a blank on #3

I'll throw this out, too. A front line utility pilot (UH60) was required to only fly 96 hours per year to be current and proficient. LTs, CPTs, WOs -- all had to fly the same mins. ALSO, not all LTs had to have a degree. I just don't think they'd make CPT without it, or maybe MAJ (it's been awhile). Likewise, I knew many WOs who did have college degrees. There are always exception to the norm.

#3 - A crewchief that says, " Nah, I don't need the book. We do this procedure by memory all the time."