Safety pilot in IMC

[Matt13C]

Joe,

I agree with much of what you posted, however, I have to disagree with your post in regards to the words I've underlined above. The right seater may not legally log this time, even as PIC. He was not the sole manipulator of the controls.

It sounds like you're saying the two pilots would decide who is going to log PIC, and then the other may not. Maybe it was just the way you worded it, but it's not a matter of if the left seater or if the right seater logs the PIC. The left seater logs it and the right seater does not. Even if the right seater logs the PIC, the left seater may log it as well. Not because they are both allowed to, but because the left seater is entitled to, even if the right seater logs it incorrectly (illegally).

The right seater is the ACTING PIC, they are responsible for the safety of the flight and if anything happens it is they who will get in trouble. They filed the IFR plan under their name. The left seater, while the sole manipulator, cannot be the acting PIC on such a flight, they are not rated for it. So the right seater is and therefore should log PIC time.

The left seater is the sole manipulator but he is not a required crew member for the flight, so he can not log PIC as per 61.51.

e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person --

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or (iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

To get around, the left seater could put the hood on and keep it on regardless of IMC or VMC. Then the right seater is both acting PIC and safety pilot, the left seater can log the PIC as sole manipulator as more than one pilot is required. I also think the safety pilot can log the time as actual, since those are the conditions that existed, just as he would log the night time if he was safety piloting during a night flight.

The only problem I see with that is who counts the XC time? If the flight is conducted fully in the IFR system, but the left seater does the take-offs and landings, can either log the XC time? The right seater is the acting PIC but he did not perform the landing. The left seater is the sole manipulator of the controls but is not a required crew member when not under the hood, so he cant log the PIC time, so does the landing count for him either?

....and so the discussion continues.

 

[ghogue]

The right seater is the ACTING PIC, they are responsible for the safety of the flight and if anything happens it is they who will get in trouble. They filed the IFR plan under their name. The left seater, while the sole manipulator, cannot be the acting PIC on such a flight, they are not rated for it. So the right seater is and therefore should log PIC time.

You're correct in that the left seater is the sole manipulator, but he is rated in the aircraft and therefore may log PIC, even though he is not IR. The right seater is the PIC in this case, but since he is not the sole manipulator, he may not log PIC. If this were a flight requiring an SIC, then yes he could log PIC, but this is not the case in this scenario.

The left seater is the sole manipulator but he is not a required crew member for the flight, so he can not log PIC as per 61.51.

61.51 does not require him to be a required crewmember, only that he be rated in the aircraft, which he was.

e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person --

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or (iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

To get around, the left seater could put the hood on and keep it on regardless of IMC or VMC. Then the right seater is both acting PIC and safety pilot, the left seater can log the PIC as sole manipulator as more than one pilot is required. I also think the safety pilot can log the time as actual, since those are the conditions that existed, just as he would log the night time if he was safety piloting during a night flight.

True in that if left seater is wearing a hood, then right seater would be a Safety Pilot and could log PIC. However, it would not be necessary for the left seater to don a hood. Perfectly legal for left seater to fly and log PIC in the scenario posted.

The only problem I see with that is who counts the XC time? If the flight is conducted fully in the IFR system, but the left seater does the take-offs and landings, can either log the XC time? The right seater is the acting PIC but he did not perform the landing. The left seater is the sole manipulator of the controls but is not a required crew member when not under the hood, so he cant log the PIC time, so does the landing count for him either?

....and so the discussion continues.

Again, left seater does not have to be a required crewmember (or IR) to log PIC. Just as long as he is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated; (as you posted and highlighted above).

 

[Joe Gremlin]

Joe,

I agree with much of what you posted, however, I have to disagree with your post in regards to the words I've underlined above. The right seater may not legally log this time, even as PIC. He was not the sole manipulator of the controls.

It sounds like you're saying the two pilots would decide who is going to log PIC, and then the other may not. Maybe it was just the way you worded it, but it's not a matter of if the left seater or if the right seater logs the PIC. The left seater logs it and the right seater does not. Even if the right seater logs the PIC, the left seater may log it as well. Not because they are both allowed to, but because the left seater is entitled to, even if the right seater logs it incorrectly (illegally).

You're technically correct. But if we accept that line of logic then according to the letter of the regs, all pilots would have to deduct any flight time from their logbook during which they allowed a non-pilot rated passenger to hold the controls. Hand your buddy the plane after takeoff and let him fly it for an hour? You can't technically log that hour. I doubt there are very many pilots out there who would not log the flight time during which they allowed their non-pilot passenger to fly the plane.

If we really wanted to get crazy about it, the logbook clock would have to stop ticking anytime a private or commercial pilot is flying with one or more passengers and engages the autopilot. Same with an ATP unless the regs require an ATP for that particular flight.

No one is going to stop the logbook clock when we turn the autopilot on, yet the regs tell us that we must. So yes, you are correct, only the left seater can legally log the flight. But I doubt anyone would question it after the fact if the right seater logged it and the left seater didn't.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

The right seater is the ACTING PIC, they are responsible for the safety of the flight and if anything happens it is they who will get in trouble. They filed the IFR plan under their name. The left seater, while the sole manipulator, cannot be the acting PIC on such a flight, they are not rated for it. So the right seater is and therefore should log PIC time.

No.

The opposite of a pilot may log PIC even when not qualified to act as PIC is a pilot may act as PIC and yet no be allowed to log it. "being responsible for the safety of a flight" all by itself is not a 61.51 box for logging PIC time

The left seater is the sole manipulator but he is not a required crew member for the flight, so he can not log PIC as per 61.51.

e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person --

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or (iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted. .

What you quoted tells me why the right seater can't log PIC (only one pilot is required, not two), but I don't understand how you get that the sole manipulator can't log PIC, especially with that nice little word "or" between the choices. 61.51(e)(i) stand alone to let the left seater log the time as PIC (unless, of course, you want to argue that a pilot can only log PIC when alone)

 

[ghogue]

You're technically correct. But if we accept that line of logic then according to the letter of the regs, all pilots would have to deduct any flight time from their logbook during which they allowed a non-pilot rated passenger to hold the controls. Hand your buddy the plane after takeoff and let him fly it for an hour? You can't technically log that hour. I doubt there are very many pilots out there who would not log the flight time during which they allowed their non-pilot passenger to fly the plane.

I would agree with your assessment about not logging time when non-flying buddy flies the airplane. There is no provision in 61.51 for the PIC to log the time under those conditions. However, the Chief Counsel disagrees with me. In a recent Letter of Interpretation (I'm looking for a copy of it, so if I'm off a little, someone with a copy can correct this). It says, if I remember correctly, that if no one else can legally log the time, the PIC may, even if he is not the sole manipulator of the controls. I think this is a poor interpretation because there is no condition for this under 61.51, but I don't interpretate the regs, the CC does, so I accept this until it is changed.

If we really wanted to get crazy about it, the logbook clock would have to stop ticking anytime a private or commercial pilot is flying with one or more passengers and engages the autopilot. Same with an ATP unless the regs require an ATP for that particular flight.

Please explain the autopilot statement. The regs do not preclude a pilot from logging time when autopilot is engaged. If that were so, most time flown in large turbine airplanes could not be logged. Many flights are conducted with the autopilot on from just after takeoff until shortly before touchdown. Autopilot use does not stop the clock for logging time.

No one is going to stop the logbook clock when we turn the autopilot on, yet the regs tell us that we must. So yes, you are correct, only the left seater can legally log the flight. But I doubt anyone would question it after the fact if the right seater logged it and the left seater didn't.

Where do the regs say we have to stop the clock when the autopilot is turned on? I don't think you'll find aywhere in them that says that.

Why would someone not question the fact that the right seater logged PIC time when he was not legally permitted to do so? Even if the left seater chose to not log the time (his perogative), that does not mean the right seater is free to log this. In this case no time would be logged, because the left seater didn't choose to, and the right seater is precluded from doing so per 61.51. If you're saying that it wouldn't be questioned because it might not be noticed, I agree. If you're saying it wouldn't be questioned because it is okay, I disagree.

 

[Matt13C]

No.

The opposite of a pilot may log PIC even when not qualified to act as PIC is a pilot may act as PIC and yet no be allowed to log it. "being responsible for the safety of a flight" all by itself is not a 61.51 box for logging PIC time

What you quoted tells me why the right seater can't log PIC (only one pilot is required, not two), but I don't understand how you get that the sole manipulator can't log PIC, especially with that nice little word "or" between the choices. 61.51(e)(i) stand alone to let the left seater log the time as PIC (unless, of course, you want to argue that a pilot can only log PIC when alone)

Maybe I am misinterpreting the regs but I feel like 1.1 over rides 61.51.

In the situation described, two pilots are flying on an IFR trip, one with an IR rating another only a private pilot, neither are under the hood, but they are in actual. The pilot in the right seat, the IR rated pilot, filed the trip and thus was designated the acting PIC prior to the trip.

FAR 1.1 states the PIC
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and
safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the
flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if
appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

The specific clause is the first, the pilot in the left seat is not allowed legally to be the final authority nor will he be held responsible for the actions of the aircraft, even if he is at the controls, if something goes wrong because he cant be the acting PIC while on an IFR clearance.

If the person in the left seat is a pilot and the sole manipulator is of no consequence, it could be my 82 year old non-pilot grand mother flying the ship, unless he is under the hood. I say this, and why i bolded what I did, because while he is flying the airplane, he is not the only occupant, which he cant be while on an IFR plan, nor is he acting as the PIC, he is not under the hood therefore 2 pilots are not needed. Therefore, the pilot who is Acting, as determined by 1.1, the IR rated pilot who is responsible for the flight, is the pilot who should log the PIC. If however the left seater put the hood on, all that changes and they both log PIC.

That is my take anyway, but I am new at this, only have 140 hours, wont be the first time I was wrong and certainly wont be the last time. I am just trying to better understand the regs and also help make the long days of stareing at excel more enjoyable until I can fly for a living.

 

[Joe Gremlin]

Please explain the autopilot statement. The regs do not preclude a pilot from logging time when autopilot is engaged. If that were so, most time flown in large turbine airplanes could not be logged. Many flights are conducted with the autopilot on from just after takeoff until shortly before touchdown. Autopilot use does not stop the clock for logging time.

The regs don't say that. I was attempting to make the point that if we try to were to stick to letter of 61.51(e), then it could be argued that we wouldn't be able to log PIC while the autopilot is engaged and we have pax with us because while the autopilot is on, we're not manipulating any controls, and we're not the sole occupant of the plane.

As you've pointed out, there is apparently a letter of interpretation which says essentially that pilot may log PIC so long as he's acting as PIC and no one else may legally log it. But short of that letter and using only the text in 61.51, one could make a pretty convincing arguement for the log clock stopping when the autopilot goes on. Obviously that arguement would be incorrect, but only because the letter you've mentioned makes it so.

 

[SteveC]

Maybe I am misinterpreting the regs but I feel like 1.1 over rides 61.51.

Maybe it would help if we think about it this way:

1.1 tells us who may ACT as PIC (in other words be the boss).

61.51 tells us who may LOG PIC (you don't have to be the boss to be able to log PIC, and in fact in rare cases the boss can't log PIC).

 

[ghogue]

The regs don't say that. I was attempting to make the point that if we try to were to stick to letter of 61.51(e), then it could be argued that we wouldn't be able to log PIC while the autopilot is engaged and we have pax with us because while the autopilot is on, we're not manipulating any controls, and we're not the sole occupant of the plane.

As you've pointed out, there is apparently a letter of interpretation which says essentially that pilot may log PIC so long as he's acting as PIC and no one else may legally log it. But short of that letter and using only the text in 61.51, one could make a pretty convincing arguement for the log clock stopping when the autopilot goes on. Obviously that arguement would be incorrect, but only because the letter you've mentioned makes it so.

Joe,

Even using the autopilot, the pilot is manipulating the controls, the autopilot is part of the aircraft controls, are they not? Notice that the regs do not say flight controls, or ailerons, rudder and elevator. Just controls. I really don't like mentioning Letters of Interpretation when I don't have the reference in front of me to present, but I think this has also been addressed by the CC. Autopilot use is included in the phrase "sole manipulator of the controls".

Also, the first Ltr of Interp I mentioned would not apply to autopilot use, but only to a situation where the person who is manipulating the controls is not authorized to otherwise log the time. That's the only situation that letter applies to.

I do apologize for not posting the mentioned LOI's, I'm looking for them, but in the meantime, if anyone has these references, it would be great to have them posted.

One last thing, Joe. I don't expect you or anyone to take my word for this. Check out the regs yourself, without any preconceived idea what they mean. And search the forums for this subject, I'm pretty sure it has been discussed at length in the past.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Maybe I am misinterpreting the regs but I feel like 1.1 over rides 61.51.

1.1 deals with acting PIC. 61.51 deals with logging PIC time.

For reasons lost in the mists of history, the FAA made the decision to separate the concepts of "acting as PIC" and "logging PIC time." If you're interested, I have a long-winded explanation here: http://www.midlifeflight.com/faq/faq.php?s=1#2

It's a concept that is sometimes difficult for us to wrap our heads around. But it is what it is.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

However, the Chief Counsel disagrees with me. In a recent Letter of Interpretation (I'm looking for a copy of it, so if I'm off a little, someone with a copy can correct this). It says, if I remember correctly, that if no one else can legally log the time, the PIC may, even if he is not the sole manipulator of the controls. I think this is a poor interpretation because there is no condition for this under 61.51, but I don't interpretate the regs, the CC does, so I accept this until it is changed.

Unless there is a =very= new interpretation out there, you may have come across this one in a discussion online. It's prety old and cannot be verified as real. The part in italics is what you may be referring to, but even then, the opinion is talking of aircraft ratings, not condition ratings.

==============================
June 22, 1977

Mr. Thomas Beane

Dear Mr. Beane:

This letter is in response to your recent letters to the FAA Flight Standards Service and to the Chief Counsel inquiring about the logging of pilot-in-command (PIC) time by an airman whenever he is not the sole manipulator of the controls.


Section 1.1 of the Federal Aviation Regulations defines Pilot in Command as:

Pilot in command means the person who:

(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight; (2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and (3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

Section 61.51(c)(2) of the Federal Aviation Regulations provides, in pertinent part:

(2) Pilot-in-Command flight time.

(I) A private or commercial pilot may log as pilot in command time only that flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated, or when he is the sole occupant of the aircraft, or when he acts as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

A pilot may log PIC time in accordance with Section 61.51(c)(2)(I) when he is not actually "flying the airplane", if the airplane is one on which more than one pilot is required under its type certificate or under the regulations under which the flight is conducted and he is acting as PIC. Also, a pilot, rated in category and class (e.g. airplane single-engine) could, as the pilot who "Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight" log PIC time if another pilot, not appropriately rated, was actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft.

It should be noted that more than one pilot may log PIC time for the same flight time. For example, one pilot receiving instruction may log PIC time in accordance with paragraph (c)(2)(I) for the time he is designated PIC, and another pilot may log PIC time in accordance with (c)(2)(iii) for the same time during which he is actually giving flight instruction.

We hope that we have satisfactorily responded to your inquiry on the proper logging of PIC time.

Sincerely,

ORIGINAL SIGNED BY EDWARD P. FABERMAN
for NEIL R. EISNER Acting Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations & Enforcement Division Office of the Chief Counsel -
==============================

If you're aware of a newer one that says the same thing, I'd love to see it.

 

[ghogue]

Unless there is a =very= new interpretation out there, you may have come across this one in a discussion online. It's prety old and cannot be verified as real. The part in italics is what you may be referring to, but even then, the opinion is talking of aircraft ratings, not condition ratings.


If you're aware of a newer one that says the same thing, I'd love to see it.

Mark,

I do recall seeing this on a forum in the past, but it is not the one I was referring to. I think it was issued in 2008 and remember seeing it discussed here (or perhaps one of the other forums, I'm not sure which). I'll keep looking and post when I locate it.

Thanks.

 

[Matt13C]

Maybe it would help if we think about it this way:

1.1 tells us who may ACT as PIC (in other words be the boss).

61.51 tells us who may LOG PIC (you don't have to be the boss to be able to log PIC, and in fact in rare cases the boss can't log PIC).

1.1 deals with acting PIC. 61.51 deals with logging PIC time.

For reasons lost in the mists of history, the FAA made the decision to separate the concepts of "acting as PIC" and "logging PIC time." If you're interested, I have a long-winded explanation here: http://www.midlifeflight.com/faq/faq.php?s=1#2

It's a concept that is sometimes difficult for us to wrap our heads around. But it is what it is.

Thanks guys. I stand corrected.

I still dont think it is right for the person whos license is on the line to not be able to log the PIC. If I was flying with a private pilot in IMC, even though they would be flying, I would still be keeping an eye on the instruments, and ensuring they were following the clearance. If something went wrong, as the IR rated pilot(will be shortly anyway), it would be me who would be responsible. But, I am not the FAA so my opinion on the matter is irrelevant.

:tmyk:

 

[ghogue]

Mark,

I do recall seeing this on a forum in the past, but it is not the one I was referring to. I think it was issued in 2008 and remember seeing it discussed here (or perhaps one of the other forums, I'm not sure which). I'll keep looking and post when I locate it.

Thanks.

Mark,

After continued search and checking with a very knowledgeable source, I've come to the conclusion that "Beane" is the letter I had in mind, and somehow thought I had seen a newer (non existent) one. It would be nice to find out if it in fact is legitimate, and if so, is it still valid. Obviously with my search capabilities, it won't be me making the discovery.

gary

 

[Center_Mid]

My question is, why would a non-CFII instrument rated pilot essentially "lend" his rating to a non-rated pvt pilot just so that non-rated pilot could fly in IMC on an IFR flight plan, especially if there is major doubt under the FARs about whether the IR pilot could log any time? I mean, with so many CFIT accidents involving non-rated pilots who fly into IMC, why risk it?

If you're a CFII giving dual that's one thing, but if not, then to just sit there and try to make sure that the left seater doesn't screw up under the IFR flight plan that YOU filed sounds incredibly risky. Would you handle all ATC communications or the left seater? Would you leave it to the non-rated guy to respond to things like hold instructions, clearance amendments, weird vectors, etc.? I would think not. So would the non-rated guy fly those portions of the flight? There would be a lot of stuff to work out prior to leaving the ground and it would be difficult to manage outside of the context of CFII dual given.

 

[Joe Gremlin]

My question is, why would a non-CFII instrument rated pilot essentially "lend" his rating to a non-rated pvt pilot just so that non-rated pilot could fly in IMC on an IFR flight plan, especially if there is major doubt under the FARs about whether the IR pilot could log any time? I mean, with so many CFIT accidents involving non-rated pilots who fly into IMC, why risk it?

Believe it or not, some folks don't care all that much about logging time. At this point in my life, I'd happily fly safety pilot for one of my buddies, but I doubt that I'd bother to log it at all. These days I generally don't bother to get the logbook out unless I'm getting close to 90 days since the last time I wrote 3 landings in it.

If you're a CFII giving dual that's one thing, but if not, then to just sit there and try to make sure that the left seater doesn't screw up under the IFR flight plan that YOU filed sounds incredibly risky. Would you handle all ATC communications or the left seater? Would you leave it to the non-rated guy to respond to things like hold instructions, clearance amendments, weird vectors, etc.? I would think not. So would the non-rated guy fly those portions of the flight? There would be a lot of stuff to work out prior to leaving the ground and it would be difficult to manage outside of the context of CFII dual given.

When I was working on my IR with my CFII, we did quite a few flights where I filed an IFR plan with his name on it, and then we flew the flight in IMC and he didn't unfold his arms, touch a control, or talk about anything that could be considered 'training' during the entire flight. I'd have no reason to expect any other instrument student in the later stages of their training to be any different. And if they got behind the flight plan or the plane, I'd be perfectly willing and able to step in and do whatever was required up, to and including letting them be nothing more than an passenger in the left seat for the rest of the flight. And as I mentioned above, my days of giving a rats butt about logging PIC are long behind me, so if the left seater actually flew the flight, it wouldn't disturb me in the least that they could log it and I could not.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

When I was working on my IR with my CFII, we did quite a few flights where I filed an IFR plan with his name on it, and then we flew the flight in IMC and he didn't unfold his arms, touch a control, or talk about anything that could be considered 'training' during the entire flight. I'd have no reason to expect any other instrument student in the later stages of their training to be any different..

Agreed. I logged as much actual time as possible, both with instrument rated pilots and CFIs.

A few points: The Instrument (simulated and actual) time required for the IR DOES NOT NEED to be PIC. So this is kind of an academic question.

I see no problem with the pilot flying logging PIC. Obviously, there is no doubt you can do so with a CFI or II. The instrument time for my PPL was all done in actual with a CFI (not II).

My DPE also had me log the time PIC on my checkride (and file under my name). What exactly is different about doing so with an IR safety pilot? (the sole manipulator hasn't changed). I would just log the time - I doubt anyone would ever challenge it. Since you filed the flight plan, and the weather was IMC, who would ever ask? And anyway, how often are you in solid IMC for that long? Just log it as simulated - who is to say it wasn't marginal VFR?

I would say that an instrument student preparing for a checkride is probably quite proficient. Nervous maybe, but probably paying more attention to details too. I see no problem having even a PPL knowing nothing about IFR being the sole manipulator. For planes without an autopilot, having them fly the plane while preparing for an approach is indeed a good idea. I would like to hope that any PPL is capable of holding attitude and heading for 2 minutes under the hood.

I've logged PIC in IMC without an IR. Easy to justify- the regs say any time the aircraft is flown solely by reference to instruments. You can fly solely by reference to instruments in VMC quite legally and easily at night over the water.

 

[cmill]

A private pilot working on their instrument rating needs a safety pilot. The safety pilot is a current instrument rated private pilot. Can they go IMC and both log PIC?

Simply put no. And when you say IMC, im going to assume that you mean in the clouds actually IMC.

Number one, the whole point of a safety pilot is to spot traffic while the other is under the hood, that role is useless in actual conditions.

Number two, you have to be rated to fly under IMC, because of that the non rated pilot cannot legally touch the controls, and therefore theres no possible way he can log PIC.

You're basically asking if you can preform the role as a CFII, as a private instrument private. Not only can you not do that, its also a bad idea. There's a reason a person has to go through all the shenanigans to get an II, and by somebody going up there as a private pilot in actual IMC so he and his buddy can both build some time is cheapening all the hard work that everyone else put in to earn the privilege to do that.

 

[cmill]

I've logged PIC in IMC without an IR. Easy to justify- the regs say any time the aircraft is flown solely by reference to instruments. You can fly solely by reference to instruments in VMC quite legally and easily at night over the water.

So, you went into actual IMC, without an IR, and without being on an IFR light plan?

Anymore regs you care to admit busting?

 

[JEP]

So, you went into actual IMC, without an IR, and without being on an IFR light plan?

Anymore regs you care to admit busting?

read his post again, he never said Actual (in the clouds) IFR and IMC are getting intertwined I believe.:

......

I've logged PIC in IMC without an IR. Easy to justify- the regs say any time the aircraft is flown solely by reference to instruments. You can fly solely by reference to instruments in VMC quite legally and easily at night over the water.