Rumot mill running fast: New ASA mins come Jan 08

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surreal1221 said:
I think that's the point. . .

Either pay up at one of the schools we refer you to for an RJ course, or instruct.

I think that's what they are trying to say, rightfully or wrongfully. An individual choice.
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No, I think what they're saying, is that a pilot that comes in with 250 hours is pretty amateur. Taking on a regional jet at 500kts is MUCH different from towing a banner at 100kts. Things happen pretty darn quick. They want you to have some sort of experience flying or training on a jet before they throw 50 people in the trunk.
 
CaptBdoubleU said:
No, I think what they're saying, is that a pilot that comes in with 250 hours is pretty amateur. Taking on a regional jet at 500kts is MUCH different from towing a banner at 100kts. Things happen pretty darn quick. They want you to have some sort of experience flying or training on a jet before they throw 50 people in the trunk.
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I don't see their point in essentially saying that banner tow, aerial photography or traffic watch isnt legitimate time building. If you ask me, any time spent as PIC in an airplane, be it a 172 or a regional jet, is going to be valuable and counts as experience.

Just because you are towing a banner, taking someone around for photo's or flying up and down highways, doesn't mean you don't have to worry about engine management/failures, airspace, fuel comsumption etc...

Maybe ASA should ask someone who was doing one of these "false" time building flights who'm lost and engine or faced an emergency if this is fake time building.

Then again, if they drop to 250 hours, if a guy comes part 61, what the hell do they care about time building? Not like he has done any for compensation or hire anyways.
 
aloft said:
These days, military training ain't that much different from the big academies, boys and girls. Seriously.
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You are wrong here. My sim partner from initial training went to a 'big academy' flight school. He flew around, built time a variety of ways, then went to Colgan. He left Colgan about a year ago to do the NY ANG flying C-5s.

The military training is SO much different than civilian training, its not even funny.
 
newty said:
It wasn't bad luck that I chose to get experience, and it's not bad luck that they are going to lower the mins, none of it is bad luck, its bad decision making on behalf of the airline and it's bad for our pay as pilots. I have 1800 hours with a good deal of it instruction given, I learned stuff that the 250 guru hasn't. I learned stuff in Alaska and I learned flying freight,I am by no mean a great pilot but I have learned some things, I have some "real world experience" and instead of raising pay to try and attract pilots like me, ASA and others are just lowering the mins. No I don't have 121 experience, but I know what it's like to lose your attitude indicator at night in hard IMC, and that could be valuable in the 121 world. I'll stop whining now and suck it up and get myself a job.
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Well it seems like you're confident with the decision you made, which is good. I was just confused because you described it as a "kick in the nuts". If you truly believe that you did it the right way, be proud of yourself and don't envy these guys.
 
Ok, so their website also says the mins are 400/50 right now with advanced jet training to include A,B,C etc.... so what it you have only glass cockpit experience or one of the others, does that count or does it need to be the whole package?
 
Why the heck would you want to banner tow, traffic watch, etc? If ASA goes with those mins, most traffic watch jobs would have HIGHER mins than ASA. Back when I was instructing, you couldn't even breathe near a traffic watch job without 500TT.
 
zmiller4 said:
Although this did inspire me to go look at ASA's hiring page and they have next to their minimum time an interesting asterisked note that says:

"* Hours acquired in banner towing, traffic watch or aerial photography are not the best way to build flight time."
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You know, I assumed you were joking about this, and then I went over to the ASA careers page to see for myself what their current mins are, and you aren't frickin' joking!!! What the hell is wrong with the recruiting department over at ASA?
 
MikeOH58 said:
I also take a lot of pleasure in the fact that these 18 year old 250 hour tools who go to the airlines and skip college are socially retarded, because instead of going off to college, living away from home, being forced to get along with, and live with people you would have never been around prior to college, they live at home with mommy and daddy till 25...But hey! At least at their 5 year high school re-union, they can say "I fly a jet".

stem whackers.
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You might want to tone it down a notch and stop making so many ass-umptions. I started flying right out of high school, but I certainly didn't live with "mommy and daddy." I took care of myself, and did just fine without that fancy degree to teach me how to not be "socially retarded." I did just fine and made it to my #1 choice of career airlines without a degree thanks to some good networking, but I still encourage everyone to get their degree for this career. That being said, you need to lay off of the elitism. Your degree doesn't make you better than anyone else.
 
I don't think having a college degree makes you any better or any worse of a person, however, it does make you more marketable for a job, and it does provide a unique experience, unparalled to anything else if you don't go.

Classes and education aside, as I said earlier, going to college puts a person with and around people he or she may have never been around before, and forces them to deal with situations, and get along with other people. Obviously a generalization, and not true of all, but i'll tell ya this...Theres a big difference between my friends from high school that went off and lived at college, and those who stayed home.

And you know very well that the industry is heading towards the direction where a college degree will be a requirement at all of the majors....If you ask me, the degree is the most important rating you can have, and i'll stand by that.
 
aloft said:
These days, military training ain't that much different from the big academies, boys and girls. Seriously.
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What makes you say this? I think that's way, way, WAY off mark.

SUPT standards have falllen (sort of) over the last 5 years or so, but not THAT far. Have the flight academies started formal release, stand ups, and making students meet MIF in a tightly adhered syllabus or washing them out if they can't make it happen?
 
I got a play-by-play for over 14 months from a buddy of mine who went turboprop track and is now in HC-130s. Going from T-6 to C-12 to C-130s, he never has and likely never will fly a USAF aircraft with a turbojet engine. His detailed descriptions of his training left me unimpressed, and with the clear understanding that the only differences between military and civilian training are the selection standards, the washout rates, and the quality of the equipment. The rest is just a matter of syllabi (and to a lesser extent, the quality of instructor pilots, but crappy IPs are far from unheard of). Yes, many big and not-so-big schools do formal release and some form of stand-up EPs. My buddy said the C-12 portion of his training conducted by the Navy was particularly laughable; he was at Corpus for nearly 8 months, and was generally at the squadron for only 2-4 hours a day.

Hacker, keep in mind that JSUPT has changed UPT considerably, and that the experience is now radically different for fighter dudes vs. heavy dudes vs. turboprop dudes. It's not your father's UPT, where everyone had to tame the T-38, regardless of where they were headed.
 
MusketeerMan said:
So Surreal...since you're planning on going to ASA, even though you disagree with lowering the minimums, are you going to apply when they new minimums come out??
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I've been planning on applying in January or early February as it is. These lower minimums are not a good sign for me. I am expecting to be >500/100 (current mins) by January.

With a mass influx of 250/25 guys, or even the great ol ' jet-transition kiddies applying as well, I may have some problem getting picked up.

Which, is my problem personally. Professionally, it's obvious that these 250/25 hour minimums are not a good sign for the profession.

I think I've done everything right for this profession. I didn't goto Gulfstream, JetU. I did my training the traditional way, paid for it, got some ME experience and an MEI. Have my CFI, and am currently giving instruction. I'm not paying for a jet transition course that'll lower the minimums so that I could escape instructing. I enjoy instructing and seeing the transfer of knowledge. It's great.

And now this. . .I can surely feel how the single pilot IFR guy in Alaska feels - nice punch in the gut if this comes true. Hate to bring ALPA into this, as I know they really can't do much of anything. . .but. . .

Those of us on the outside right now, need ALPA to take a stand. A national PR campaign detailing the low time gurus flying out there, who have no CRM experience (dual given), and met just the bare minimums.

No one liked someone who did JUST the minimums in school, or only had the minimum pieces of flair at Applebees. Collectively, JC wants pilots who do more than just the minimum.

CaptBdoubleU said:
No, I think what they're saying, is that a pilot that comes in with 250 hours is pretty amateur. Taking on a regional jet at 500kts is MUCH different from towing a banner at 100kts. Things happen pretty darn quick. They want you to have some sort of experience flying or training on a jet before they throw 50 people in the trunk.
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I see you're in Atlanta, so who knows...maybe you're at ASA. . .but nevertheless-

I sure hope that wasn't an attempt to say these "RJ system/transition/sim courses" are an acceptable part of our industry. I do see that you said "They want you to have. . ." so maybe you're just saying the company wants it, while professional pilots understand and see the damage these courses can, and over time, will cause.

I can see those courses as a good product for remedial training that the company wants to outsource out to whoever they feel they can/should. But, to say to potential applicants "Goto this school, pay for their RJ systems course [nothing about jet experience], and then apply" is BS.

Now, if the company hired people based off of their overall experience (resume, flight experiences, dual given, etc), and heaven forbid the individual washes out during systems or even sim, NOW recommend them to an outsourced training facility and potentially give them another shot to go through systems/sim or whatever failed portion again. But even that, to me, is stretching it.

I'm also extremely worried that ASA will gradually begin reducing their training standards and requirements. Which, who knows. But I hope the training department stays strong.
 
HEY! 250TT or not, these new FOs better know how to land the plane in a crosswind, or I swear I'm going to grab out my TSA-approved 2x4 and whack them good.
 
You guys should be happy with these mins - if all of the regionals go to 250 then the only thing they'll have left to do is raise pay or risk going belly up.
 
Murdoughnut said:
You guys should be happy with these mins - if all of the regionals go to 250 then the only thing they'll have left to do is raise pay or risk going belly up.
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Interesting outlook. :)

At 250 I barely felt comfortable letting someone else fly the airplane, and that's a single piston. I really don't know how guys can look themselves in the mirror and say "Well, I have 250 and I feel comfortable flying a jet safely."

I just don't believe it.
 
surreal1221 said:
Interesting outlook. :)

At 250 I barely felt comfortable letting someone else fly the airplane, and that's a single piston. I really don't know how guys can look themselves in the mirror and say "Well, I have 250 and I feel comfortable flying a jet safely."

I just don't believe it.
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Well there's two of you, so you only have to be half as good a pilot :sarcasm:

Just read through the systems manual a few times and you'll be fine http://www.smartcockpit.com/plane/bombardier/CRJ-100-200-SERIES/

:p
 
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