Rumot mill running fast: New ASA mins come Jan 08
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Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
I umm.....know a guy who got hired there with 650/27. Judging by that I'd say its not exactly an unreasonable rumot.
Cjordan
New Member
The first number is total time, but what's the second number... is it total multi engine PIC time? And wouldn't they want the multi engine PIC time to be turbine instead of piston or do they care?
I find it incredible that, in theory,being currently a 160 hr PPASEL only, and probably a 200 hour PPASEL IA when I get the instrument ticket, that putting in only 50 more hrs plus 25 specific multi engine after commercial and multi engine rating, would qualify me to co-pilot a regional jet. Incredible in an uneasy way, in that being one who tends to err on the side of caution I'm not sure I would be comfortable as a passenger with me up in the co-pilot seat with 250/25.
Just my take as an outsider.
I find it incredible that, in theory,being currently a 160 hr PPASEL only, and probably a 200 hour PPASEL IA when I get the instrument ticket, that putting in only 50 more hrs plus 25 specific multi engine after commercial and multi engine rating, would qualify me to co-pilot a regional jet. Incredible in an uneasy way, in that being one who tends to err on the side of caution I'm not sure I would be comfortable as a passenger with me up in the co-pilot seat with 250/25.
Just my take as an outsider.
LoadMasterC141
Well-Known Member
Yes Jordan you were right. Second time is Multi PIC time.
Of course turbine time, even single turbine, such as a Cessna Caravan or Pilatus PC-12, is more coveted than any piston time. You do need multi as well regardless. 100 used to be the magical minimum, but it is headed down too.
The argument about low hour co-pilots is every other one on this and other pilot boards lately. I have read most of them. There are valid arguments both ways, but personally I feel a wet commercial is too low for me, though my cousin was flying left seat in a C-130 around those numbers, and other relatives were in Tweets, Talons, or their fighter school(I am just baiting a hook so ignore this sentence until it becomes clear)
From what I see though, there are not many hires this low at other airlines that went to these mins at the beginning of this summer. It may well be a ploy to bring as many applicants to the table as possible. Eagle is doing the same kind of thing....but then they send you off to Flight Safety for 10 more weeks of full time flying and, from what I can see, the most detailed RJ course I have seen yet.
Of course turbine time, even single turbine, such as a Cessna Caravan or Pilatus PC-12, is more coveted than any piston time. You do need multi as well regardless. 100 used to be the magical minimum, but it is headed down too.
The argument about low hour co-pilots is every other one on this and other pilot boards lately. I have read most of them. There are valid arguments both ways, but personally I feel a wet commercial is too low for me, though my cousin was flying left seat in a C-130 around those numbers, and other relatives were in Tweets, Talons, or their fighter school(I am just baiting a hook so ignore this sentence until it becomes clear)
From what I see though, there are not many hires this low at other airlines that went to these mins at the beginning of this summer. It may well be a ploy to bring as many applicants to the table as possible. Eagle is doing the same kind of thing....but then they send you off to Flight Safety for 10 more weeks of full time flying and, from what I can see, the most detailed RJ course I have seen yet.
MikeOH58
Well-Known Member
Cjordan...It doesn't matter to these people. This is what the company is looking for, therefore, they are qualified. Doesn't matter what other pilots, or those pesky passengers think!
Ohhhh...And guys in the military are flying much heavier equipment, in combat, with those hours! Thats justification alone!
Everyone is going to give you this "seniorioty" is everything spheil...But I ask this? What good is seniorioty, and 2000 TPIC when you dont have a college degree? I hate to break it to these people, but getting your degree online, in four years, while working full time isn't the easiest thing to do.
I take a lot of comfort in the fact that even if some guy gets on with an airline at 18, has a seniorioty # 100's ahead of me, and thousands of hours TPIC, I move on the next level as soon as I meet requirements, while he or she is kicking him/herself in the arse because they don't have a college degree....
I also take a lot of pleasure in the fact that these 18 year old 250 hour tools who go to the airlines and skip college are socially retarded, because instead of going off to college, living away from home, being forced to get along with, and live with people you would have never been around prior to college, they live at home with mommy and daddy till 25...But hey! At least at their 5 year high school re-union, they can say "I fly a jet".
stem whackers.
Ohhhh...And guys in the military are flying much heavier equipment, in combat, with those hours! Thats justification alone!
Everyone is going to give you this "seniorioty" is everything spheil...But I ask this? What good is seniorioty, and 2000 TPIC when you dont have a college degree? I hate to break it to these people, but getting your degree online, in four years, while working full time isn't the easiest thing to do.
I take a lot of comfort in the fact that even if some guy gets on with an airline at 18, has a seniorioty # 100's ahead of me, and thousands of hours TPIC, I move on the next level as soon as I meet requirements, while he or she is kicking him/herself in the arse because they don't have a college degree....
I also take a lot of pleasure in the fact that these 18 year old 250 hour tools who go to the airlines and skip college are socially retarded, because instead of going off to college, living away from home, being forced to get along with, and live with people you would have never been around prior to college, they live at home with mommy and daddy till 25...But hey! At least at their 5 year high school re-union, they can say "I fly a jet".
stem whackers.
Soul Brotha'
Off to go do Black guy stuff
My typical conversations with Captains at JFK on our first briefing:
Captain: So long have you been here?
Me: About a year and a half.
Captain: How much time do you have?
Me: About two thousand, about 1000 in the CRJ.
Captain: Thank God, I've been flying with these 500hr wonders lately. It gets scary up there.
Me: I'm sure it can.
By no way am I super pilot, but I'm starting to really understand this plane. I'm still learning something new all the time.
Captain: So long have you been here?
Me: About a year and a half.
Captain: How much time do you have?
Me: About two thousand, about 1000 in the CRJ.
Captain: Thank God, I've been flying with these 500hr wonders lately. It gets scary up there.
Me: I'm sure it can.
By no way am I super pilot, but I'm starting to really understand this plane. I'm still learning something new all the time.
HeyEng
Well-Known Member
The AF is doing a lot of the same in reducing "minimums." The progression from SIC to PIC is much faster and NOW brand new guys coming out of UPT are going through the same course that guys went through before upgrading. Yes, there have been a higher incident of mishaps, but hasn't been "officially" attributed to the new upgrade process. IMHO...it's a bad idea, but that is the way it is and will stay that way. I am curious where all this will be in 5 years when I go out there looking to fly on the commercial side of the house...I have a hard time believing that it will still be SO FREAKING LOW!!!
HeyEng
Well-Known Member
Love the Avatar...but isn't 60% kinda high? I'm thought 35% is pretty good, right?
HercDriver130
New Member
Not endorsing or NOT endorsing low time guys......
However, with the right training... the military has been putting low time pilots in the right seat of LARGE aircraft for decades. Typical upgrade to Aircraft Commander in a 130 unit when I was on AD was 800 in type, 1000 total time APPROXIMATLEY. With Those hours and the 40 or so during upgrade you were a fully qualified Mission Pilot deployable worldwide. I know thats not exactly what is being talked about here but my point is with the right training it CAN be done.
However, with the right training... the military has been putting low time pilots in the right seat of LARGE aircraft for decades. Typical upgrade to Aircraft Commander in a 130 unit when I was on AD was 800 in type, 1000 total time APPROXIMATLEY. With Those hours and the 40 or so during upgrade you were a fully qualified Mission Pilot deployable worldwide. I know thats not exactly what is being talked about here but my point is with the right training it CAN be done.
Soul Brotha'
Off to go do Black guy stuff
Love the Avatar...but isn't 60% kinda high? I'm thought 35% is pretty good, right?
"It's illegal in 9 countries."
"Made with bits of real panther, so you know it's good."
"It stings the nostrils"
MikeOH58
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately 3 years of putting around in a 172 for 250 hours and then buying a 50 hour block in a Seneca; err...or 3 months of flying "real cross country's AIRLINE STYLE" with ATP, doesn't count as "the right training" you are referring too. I don't think the above mentioned compares what so ever to the literally non stop training military guys get.
newty
New Member
And now I start to see what a kick in the nuts this is as I have spent 2 years in alaska and idaho flying single pilot IFR and getting experience and now some 250 wonderchild is gonna get paid more than me if I go Skywest.
Murdoughnut
Well sized member
But isn't the guy with a 1000 hours TT and the guy with 250 hours going to have the same amount of part 121, regional airline experience ... Zero? I think what this is a case of probabilities - the probability that the 1000 hour guy is going to join the line as a reasonably competent FO is higher than the probability that the 250 hour guy will do the same. Fair enough - but it would be unfair to assume that because a guy has low time that he isn't a good stick, and can't remember procedures. Seems the most critical "experience" comes from being on the line for awhile. That's going to be a learning experience for anyone who hasn't been there before.
By the way - there's two "O's" in "Goose" boys
Murdoughnut
Well sized member
Yeah, it sucks, but don't blame the kid - blame bad luck.
MusketeerMan
Well-Known Member
So Surreal...since you're planning on going to ASA, even though you disagree with lowering the minimums, are you going to apply when they new minimums come out??
newty
New Member
It wasn't bad luck that I chose to get experience, and it's not bad luck that they are going to lower the mins, none of it is bad luck, its bad decision making on behalf of the airline and it's bad for our pay as pilots. I have 1800 hours with a good deal of it instruction given, I learned stuff that the 250 guru hasn't. I learned stuff in Alaska and I learned flying freight,I am by no mean a great pilot but I have learned some things, I have some "real world experience" and instead of raising pay to try and attract pilots like me, ASA and others are just lowering the mins. No I don't have 121 experience, but I know what it's like to lose your attitude indicator at night in hard IMC, and that could be valuable in the 121 world. I'll stop whining now and suck it up and get myself a job.
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