Rob Holland accident at Langley Air Force Base

Roger Roger said:
Hardly seems like a brand issue if it ends up being related to an aftermarket mod
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That’s the way I see it too. It is my understanding that Rob’s machine was a one of a kind, and this modification may not exist on any other airframe. I know one MX2 owner, and I don’t recall this on their elevator, but I’ll ask them to see.
 
Roger Roger said:
Hardly seems like a brand issue if it ends up being related to an aftermarket mod
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Manufactuer just as culpable:

"pilot collaborated with the manufacturer to modify the airplane to his specifications, which included an access hole on the left and right elevator to insert counterweights to adjust elevator feel"--NTSB.

Engineering failure. Why are the vast majority of the top aerobatic pilots flying Extras? Sure "aftermarket mod", but a stain nonetheless to MX.
 
flyingpotato said:
Manufactuer just as culpable:

"pilot collaborated with the manufacturer to modify the airplane to his specifications, which included an access hole on the left and right elevator to insert counterweights to adjust elevator feel"--NTSB.

Engineering failure. Why are the vast majority of the top aerobatic pilots flying Extras? Sure "aftermarket mod", but a stain nonetheless to MX.
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Seems like they should’ve made the elevator/stab gap larger than the length of the screw. Such a tragic way to discover the flaw.
 
flyingpotato said:
Manufactuer just as culpable:

"pilot collaborated with the manufacturer to modify the airplane to his specifications, which included an access hole on the left and right elevator to insert counterweights to adjust elevator feel"--NTSB.
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Ope, you are correct. At least partially this is one of the risks of operating an experimental aircraft-in theory all the red tape and overhead involved with certificated aircraft is supposed to minimize this kind of thing, though obviously with varying degrees of success over the years.
 
Skåning said:
Seems like they should’ve made the elevator/stab gap larger than the length of the screw. Such a tragic way to discover the flaw.
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Or the screw shorter than the gap, or put the access from the outboard end…easy to see in retrospect, but probably not so obvious in the process. It’s also unfortunately not that uncommon for GA aircraft to have fasteners in the tail cone area that can do this kind of thing (thinking specifically of PA32/28 tailcone screws, IMS the caravan had something on the elevator horns that might have been similar too), but usually the hardware is flimsy enough and the aircraft stable enough that any binding can be overcome without losing control of the aircraft. That chonky plug, plus an airplane with minimal stability to start with appear at first glance to have been holes in the Swiss cheese in this case unfortunately.
 
CFI A&P said:
That’s the way I see it too. It is my understanding that Rob’s machine was a one of a kind, and this modification may not exist on any other airframe. I know one MX2 owner, and I don’t recall this on their elevator, but I’ll ask them to see.
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It existed on Rob’s MX2, as well.
 
flyingpotato said:
There's always something to be learned from watching than merely reading. There's nothing grotesque with this.
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It's one thing to watch a video of some random guy none of us know burn in. It's another thing entirely when it's seeing someone we all looked up to die in such a tragic way.

There's nothing for us to lean from the video. I'd be fine if I could show new pilots "this is what it looks like when...." but that is not true in this case.
 
USMCmech said:
It's one thing to watch a video of some random guy none of us know burn in. It's another thing entirely when it's seeing someone we all looked up to die in such a tragic way.

There's nothing for us to lean from the video. I'd be fine if I could show new pilots "this is what it looks like when...." but that is not true in this case.
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I've tried to find video online of the Miss Ashley II accident at Reno in '99 that killed Gary Levitz. I watched it happen in real time right in front of me but I don't entirely trust my memory in those sorts of situations, everything is blurry in hindsight. I know the video exists, it happened in front of the grandstands on Saturday of race weekend. I know what happened from the NTSB report, I just want to verify that my memory aligns with reality, our airplane was just behind MAII when it happened. Any videos of that accident seem to have been scrubbed (since 1999). Again, I have no morbid reason to watch it again other than to verify my recollection, I'd never want to disrespect Gary or the MAII team.

I've told this story before, but I'll tell it again. Back when the Circus of the Rodeo that was big time Unlimited Air Racing was still a thing the "big" teams (Strega/Rare Bear/Dago Red/MAII/Voodoo) all had 18 wheeler trailers in the pits as basically a hangar to work out of. Every one of those trailers had a sort of "den mother" that would look after the crew making sure they were fed, hydrated and sometimes told to just take a break and relax for a moment. These ladies were all a bit older and usually they were there to support their husband that was a crew member on the airplane that trailer supported. They also all knew and supported each other to help keep the circus operating.

That sort of comradeship wasn't limited to the ladies making sandwiches in the trailer lounges, we all brought a lot of spare parts with us, but you can't bring everything. Happily, despite the fact that the airplanes were highly modified they were still WWII fighters and because we used to be smart they shared a lot of common parts. The fangs didn't come out until the airplanes were on the course, on the ground it was not uncommon to see teams mingling or borrowing something from one another to help make sure everyone could make the race. Winning because someone's broken isn't really winning is it?

Anyway, back to that Saturday. After they all pulled up off the course and landed we recovered our airplane and brought it back to the pit and were kind of wondering what was next. I went up into the lounge for some reason and (I apologize for not remembering her name) the Levitz team den mom came in bawling and spent some time commiserating with our den mom. It might've been the saddest thing I'd seen up to that point in my life. It's weird how little moments in time can stick with and impact a persons life.

I still can't find video of that accident, although to be honest I'm not looking that hard anymore.
 
I suppose I will be the witch in church, yet again. Watch me die all you want. Hopefully it will be really boring and not worth your time. And I would like for it to be as close to the heat-death of the universe as possible. But if you can find something in my ontological erasure which might postpone your own, well. Don't say I never gave you anything.
 
Boris Badenov said:
I suppose I will be the witch in church, yet again. Watch me die all you want. Hopefully it will be really boring and not worth your time. And I would like for it to be as close to the heat-death of the universe as possible. But if you can find something in my ontological erasure which might postpone your own, well. Don't say I never gave you anything.
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I suspect the person that buckles doesn't give a care but their friends and relatives might have different feelings about the demise of their loved one. I don't have a problem with that. If you want to see people getting killed or injured online and you can't seem to scratch that itch you're not not very good at internetting because there's a plethora of it available. I hope you understand I'm not saying you're the sort of depraved character that seeks out video of beheadings and fatal motorcycle accidents, I'm just saying that despite your best intentions your loved ones might feel differently about your demise becoming just another viral video with the main reason being because you get killed on camera. I understand why the Levitz family has scrubbed the video of Garys crash, unfortunately Jimmy Leeward was not afforded the same courtesy 12 years later.
 
knot4u said:
I suspect the person that buckles doesn't give a care but their friends and relatives might have different feelings about the demise of their loved one. I don't have a problem with that. If you want to see people getting killed or injured online and you can't seem to scratch that itch you're not not very good at internetting because there's a plethora of it available. I hope you understand I'm not saying you're the sort of depraved character that seeks out video of beheadings and fatal motorcycle accidents, I'm just saying that despite your best intentions your loved ones might feel differently about your demise becoming just another viral video with the main reason being because you get killed on camera. I understand why the Levitz family has scrubbed the video of Garys crash, unfortunately Jimmy Leeward was not afforded the same courtesy 12 years later.
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Fair. I was at least attempting to speak only for myself. There are obviously a lot of emotions surrounding these things, and far be it from me to say how it should be approached by anyone else. But (again) for my part, if someone can kick over the burning embers of what was formerly me and live longer and prosper, glad to contribute (only, I hasten to add, because it would be zero cost to me, at that point!) :D .
 
I won't lie, I want to see the video of Rob going in, if it exists. Maybe less so now that the NTSB Prelim was so telling. I do feel like there was a period of time where we all wanted to see it because we didn't believe it. I have watched and rewatched videos of friends dying, not because I have some weird fetish but it does offer me some comfort and closure.

There are pictures of Robs plane after the accident, and I am shocked they haven't gone public. I have seen them but they are not being circulated. I am still shocked that there is no video.
 
Inverted said:
I won't lie, I want to see the video of Rob going in, if it exists. Maybe less so now that the NTSB Prelim was so telling. I do feel like there was a period of time where we all wanted to see it because we didn't believe it. I have watched and rewatched videos of friends dying, not because I have some weird fetish but it does offer me some comfort and closure.

There are pictures of Robs plane after the accident, and I am shocked they haven't gone public. I have seen them but they are not being circulated. I am still shocked that there is no video.
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This is probably the first video I have no interest in seeing. It checks the boxes of somebody I know and a case where I probably can’t learn anything from the video. Uncheck a box and I’d want to see the video.

As a kid, I remember my father telling me that if you want to understand how planes fly you should examine why they crash

This one hurts. Last week I had a chance to look at the newest MXS in the country. My first instinct was to see if it had the same elevator feature as Rob’s MXS and MX2. I just kept walking.
 
For me, it would confirm that he did everything he could. I already know that, but still. I dunno, maybe I don't want to see it, but I know that before the prelim came out, I did want to see it. I just knew that it wasn't a simple loss of control on landing with Rob, and I wanted to see a video to confirm it. It is less so important now that the prelim was so thorough and effectively conclusive on what caused the loss of control.

That all being said, there is always some pilot error and this one will be no different, as I stated pages ago. I am hearing lots of rumblings that he knew he had an issue, declared, and stayed in the airplane rather than bailed, and that turned out to be the wrong decision in hindsight.

To clarify on the MX with this mod. Yes this was a modification, yes Rob wanted this modification. But this was done though MX and is not a crazy unusual mod amongst aerobatic airplanes. In fact, Skip Stewart almost ate it in his newly built Prometheus when he had a similar failure.

MX will install (at least, would have before this, I don't know now) at your request, a tail that you can modify counterbalance with. There is at least one other MXS on the planet right now with the same tail.

Here is a pic of the counterbalance weight that blocked Skips elevator...
494691683_1623308675040385_287701050118237906_n-2.jpg
 
Inverted said:
For me, it would confirm that he did everything he could. I already know that, but still. I dunno, maybe I don't want to see it, but I know that before the prelim came out, I did want to see it. I just knew that it wasn't a simple loss of control on landing with Rob, and I wanted to see a video to confirm it. It is less so important now that the prelim was so thorough and effectively conclusive on what caused the loss of control.

That all being said, there is always some pilot error and this one will be no different, as I stated pages ago. I am hearing lots of rumblings that he knew he had an issue, declared, and stayed in the airplane rather than bailed, and that turned out to be the wrong decision in hindsight.

To clarify on the MX with this mod. Yes this was a modification, yes Rob wanted this modification. But this was done though MX and is not a crazy unusual mod amongst aerobatic airplanes. In fact, Skip Stewart almost ate it in his newly built Prometheus when he had a similar failure.

MX will install (at least, would have before this, I don't know now) at your request, a tail that you can modify counterbalance with. There is at least one other MXS on the planet right now with the same tail.

Here is a pic of the counterbalance weight that blocked Skips elevator...View attachment 83680
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Rob’s MX2 has the mod. I’ll probably have another chance to take a look at the newest MXS in the country this weekend.
 
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