Rob Holland accident at Langley Air Force Base

Boris Badenov said:
I suppose I will be the witch in church, yet again. Watch me die all you want. Hopefully it will be really boring and not worth your time. And I would like for it to be as close to the heat-death of the universe as possible. But if you can find something in my ontological erasure which might postpone your own, well. Don't say I never gave you anything.
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I completely agree with this and would eagerly watch Boris die on the interwebs. In fact, maybe Doug could set up a zoom chat type thing? Perhaps even offer it as PPV to help defray some of the cost of JC? Either way. Thank you for your service Boris. I got dibs on posting High Flight as well as "At least he died doing what he loved..." and such.
 
WacoFan said:
I completely agree with this and would eagerly watch Boris die on the interwebs. In fact, maybe Doug could set up a zoom chat type thing? Perhaps even offer it as PPV to help defray some of the cost of JC? Either way. Thank you for your service Boris. I got dibs on posting High Flight as well as "At least he died doing what he loved..." and such.
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Prayers for the deceased and his family.
 
There are videos you can learn from but outside of showing someone "this is an aerodynamic stall/spin sequence" or "this is a VMC roll" or "Torque roll" to help explain I'm not exactly sure what value exists. Perhaps watching an accident sequence after reading a NTSB report? One thing I find more useful are videos overlaying CVR and ATC with simulator type shots showing cockpit activity during an accident sequence.
 
WacoFan said:
There are videos you can learn from but outside of showing someone "this is an aerodynamic stall/spin sequence" or "this is a VMC roll" or "Torque roll" to help explain I'm not exactly sure what value exists. Perhaps watching an accident sequence after reading a NTSB report? One thing I find more useful are videos overlaying CVR and ATC with simulator type shots showing cockpit activity during an accident sequence.
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It’s not lost on me that an NTSB report can be prepared by a team that does not include a pilot, let alone a pilot in type. Video, simulations, and ADS data can provide information that eludes text.

That said, if an empennage drops off a plane and the aircraft tumbles to the ground, I think I want to see video out of morbid curiosity if I have no personal connections to crew or pax.
 
Inverted said:
For me, it would confirm that he did everything he could.

That all being said, there is always some pilot error
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For me its aerodynamic characteristics in unusual structural conditions and pilot reaction or lack of. Have been involved with IAC since a teenager, followed careers blossom and die, no doubt on one aspect its painful for the aero community, friends and family, but scientific curiosity does not equal to morbid fascination. There's so much we don't know about aerodynamics, so from a scientific standpoint, additional observations can help confirm, deny and generate hypotheses. Maybe don't plaster it online, but share it within the flight test community.
 
Inverted said:
For me, it would confirm that he did everything he could. I already know that, but still. I dunno, maybe I don't want to see it, but I know that before the prelim came out, I did want to see it. I just knew that it wasn't a simple loss of control on landing with Rob, and I wanted to see a video to confirm it. It is less so important now that the prelim was so thorough and effectively conclusive on what caused the loss of control.

That all being said, there is always some pilot error and this one will be no different, as I stated pages ago. I am hearing lots of rumblings that he knew he had an issue, declared, and stayed in the airplane rather than bailed, and that turned out to be the wrong decision in hindsight.

To clarify on the MX with this mod. Yes this was a modification, yes Rob wanted this modification. But this was done though MX and is not a crazy unusual mod amongst aerobatic airplanes. In fact, Skip Stewart almost ate it in his newly built Prometheus when he had a similar failure.

MX will install (at least, would have before this, I don't know now) at your request, a tail that you can modify counterbalance with. There is at least one other MXS on the planet right now with the same tail.

Here is a pic of the counterbalance weight that blocked Skips elevator...View attachment 83680
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I feel like at that level they all eventually face an issue like this when they push those airplanes as hard as they do. I always felt like Sean D Tucker was one the safest guys out there and how many times did he have to jump out of his plane for control failures? I believe twice if I remember right.
 
As for the disbelief - understandable- because of his otherworldly skill...I was kind of disabused of this notion that skill was a pertinent issue at times depending on the situation. I asked my grandpa what a "natural pilot" was and if he'd ever flown with one. He thought a bit and replied "two I think". He defined it as being students who he could show something once and the guy would immediately do it as well or better than he could. He said two guys he instructed - one named Merle (who died in a cropduster in the 50's). The other was Bob Herendeen (IAC Hall of Fame) who he later hired at TWA and lobbied management to lift their arbitrary ban on aerobatic performance they imposed sometimes in the 70's (I think). He also died in an airplane. Anyway, sometimes all the skill in the world ain't gonna help if your numbers up that day.
 
Inverted25 said:
I feel like at that level they all eventually face an issue like this when they push those airplanes as hard as they do. I always felt like Sean D Tucker was one the safest guys out there and how many times did he have to jump out of his plane for control failures? I believe twice if I remember right.
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I actually think it was 3. I agree with you fully.

The other side of the coin is, why tinker with a science project just to compete with countries who solely fly the 330SC and don't tinker at all. Rob was truly one of the best to ever do it but the MXS was so much different than the 330SC and SX. Control surface deflection, counterbalance, horsepower, extreme aft CG and so much more. Just be almost as good as the 330SC on the world stage. I know it is the pilot, not the plane, but the French can hop into a borrowed SC, bone stock and win WAC. There are a lot of other factors at play when you have a nationally supported aerobatic team but I always found it odd to see people tinker with an airplane instead of just flying the gold standard.
 
Wouldn't it be a more true test of skill if there was a commonality in machines? Adopt the Extra or, my choice, a Pitts Special.
 
WacoFan said:
Wouldn't it be a more true test of skill if there was a commonality in machines? Adopt the Extra or, my choice, a Pitts Special.
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Yes, but at at that level, I think it comes down to taste. But far and away, the 330SC is the most widely used airplane so it is amazing to see the differences in flying/judging when different people fly the same plane.
 
WacoFan said:
Wouldn't it be a more true test of skill if there was a commonality in machines? Adopt the Extra or, my choice, a Pitts Special.
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I hate where international competition is right now. The routines seem like they are designed to make pilots physically uncomfortable more than showcase skill and precision.

My favorite airshow performers, like Team Titan (AeroShell), display energy management and precision.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
I hate where international competition is right now. The routines seem like they are designed to make pilots physically uncomfortable more than showcase skill and precision.

My favorite airshow performers, like Team Titan (AeroShell), display energy management and precision.
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Well let's be clear, airshow performing and international competitoin are like comparing a rodeo to horse racing. I don't disagree though that sequences are getting crazy. CIVA rules are really pushing the bounds.
 
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Inverted said:
Well let's be clear, airshow performing and international competitoin are like comparing a rodeo to horse racing. I don't disagree though that sequences are getting crazy. CIVA rules are really pushing the bounds.
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I understand the differences but they used to be much more similar in nature.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
I understand the differences but they used to be much more similar in nature.
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That is because you had more airshow performers that flew contests. Rob, Goulian, Chambliss etc. Tucker, Wagstaff, Chapman and a dozen others all had their claws into the IAC for their roots. It just isn't like that for airshow performers anymore. Not to begruge them and they are very very talented, but Kevin Coleman, Skip Stewart, Brad Wursten and a few others have never touched an IAC sequence in the traditional or old school sense. They are incredible airshow pilots but the days of having airshow sequences look like 4 min frees are getting slimmer. Rob was going to carry that torch for a long time. Goulian is basically the last one flying like he is in front of the judges at WAC. Whether that is good or bad is subjective but the airshow industry is reshaping big time.
 
Inverted said:
That is because you had more airshow performers that flew contests. Rob, Goulian, Chambliss etc. Tucker, Wagstaff, Chapman and a dozen others all had their claws into the IAC for their roots. It just isn't like that for airshow performers anymore. Not to begruge them and they are very very talented, but Kevin Coleman, Skip Stewart, Brad Wursten and a few others have never touched an IAC sequence in the traditional or old school sense. They are incredible airshow pilots but the days of having airshow sequences look like 4 min frees are getting slimmer. Rob was going to carry that torch for a long time. Goulian is basically the last one flying like he is in front of the judges at WAC. Whether that is good or bad is subjective but the airshow industry is reshaping big time.
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I thought skip did fly contest in his 20s. Not at all high level but I thought he said in a interview he had flown contest prior to starting his airshow career
 
Not sure that I believe in the notion of a "natural pilot". Seems like a myth that lives in the heads of people who watched "The Right Stuff" a few too many times. I know guys who BS'd a lot, knew how to fool their IPs, and not screw things up too bad for long enough for people to think they were good. And then things, like flying tactical jets tactically, got really hard and they didn't have the work ethic, and they either failed miserably and were fully removed from flying altogether, or they had a come to Jesus moment and started actually putting in the effort, and normally even after that, they were barely average at best. The other category would be the folks who had some natural skill......what I'd call a steep learning curve. But they also fumbled at times. Often just about as much as everyone else. But they had the work/study ethic to power through and continue to improve. Those guys are the "naturals", but that term robs them of the hard work they put in to get there. I never knew Chuck Yeager, but I guarantee he was just as much talent, as he was hard work/chair flying/studying/etc. The "natural" thing rubs me the wrong way, same way parents of other children prioritize their offspring being "gifted" and telling themselves a lie that their kids are naturally good at everything when the kids put no effort at all into those things.......and to people who are not their parents, it is apparent (fun rhyme) that their kids are about as gifted as Napoleon Dynamite was at anything. In other words, they are in for a rude awakening when they leave my little small town. /rant

Oh yeah, full disclosure so nobody thinks I'm just a jealous parent. My kid is in the same category, and I'm talking about parents of his peers in the same program here. Most are fine, a couple make me worry for their children in the next few years.
 
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///AMG said:
Not sure that I believe in the notion of a "natural pilot". Seems like a myth that lives in the heads of people who watched "The Right Stuff" a few too many times. I know guys who BS'd a lot, knew how to fool their IPs, and not screw things up too bad for long enough for people to think they were good. And then things, like flying tactical jets tactically, got really hard and they didn't have the work ethic, and they either failed miserably and were fully removed from flying altogether, or they had a come to Jesus moment and started actually putting in the effort, and normally even after that, they were barely average at best. The other category would be the folks who had some natural skill......what I'd call a steep learning curve. But they also fumbled at times. Often just about as much as everyone else. But they had the work/study ethic to power through and continue to improve. Those guys are the "naturals", but that term robs them of the hard work they put in to get there. I never knew Chuck Yeager, but I guarantee he was just as much talent, as he was hard work/chair flying/studying/etc. The "natural" thing rubs me the wrong way, same way parents of other children prioritize their offspring being "gifted" and telling themselves a lie that their kids are naturally good at everything when the kids put no effort at all into those things.......and to people who are not their parents, it is apparent (fun rhyme) that their kids are about as gifted as Napoleon Dynamite was at anything. In other words, they are in for a rude awakening when they leave my little small town. /rant

Oh yeah, full disclosure so nobody thinks I'm just a jealous parent. My kid is in the same category, and I'm talking about parents of his peers in the same program here. Most are fine, a couple make me worry for their children in the next few years.
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Some people have to study for hours to retain and apply the same knowledge that others only have to sit in a class one time to get. Others never get it no matter how hard they study.

Sometimes one just gets it. That’s a natural.
 
Wardogg said:
Some people have to study for hours to retain and apply the same knowledge that others only have to sit in a class one time to get. Others never get it no matter how hard they study.

Sometimes one just gets it. That’s a natural.
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Sure, that is what I meant by "learning curve". But to really master a complex skill, just memorizing classroom stuff (or even basic flight instruction) is not enough. At least at the level I am used to instructing at, you don't just naturally "have it". Nobody does. Some are better than others right out the gate, but all of them put in a lot of work to get there in the first place. I'm probably not articulating my point very well though.
 
///AMG said:
Not sure that I believe in the notion of a "natural pilot". Seems like a myth that lives in the heads of people who watched "The Right Stuff" a few too many times. I know guys who BS'd a lot, knew how to fool their IPs, and not screw things up too bad for long enough for people to think they were good. And then things, like flying tactical jets tactically, got really hard and they didn't have the work ethic, and they either failed miserably and were fully removed from flying altogether, or they had a come to Jesus moment and started actually putting in the effort, and normally even after that, they were barely average at best. The other category would be the folks who had some natural skill......what I'd call a steep learning curve. But they also fumbled at times. Often just about as much as everyone else. But they had the work/study ethic to power through and continue to improve. Those guys are the "naturals", but that term robs them of the hard work they put in to get there. I never knew Chuck Yeager, but I guarantee he was just as much talent, as he was hard work/chair flying/studying/etc. The "natural" thing rubs me the wrong way, same way parents of other children prioritize their offspring being "gifted" and telling themselves a lie that their kids are naturally good at everything when the kids put no effort at all into those things.......and to people who are not their parents, it is apparent (fun rhyme) that their kids are about as gifted as Napoleon Dynamite was at anything. In other words, they are in for a rude awakening when they leave my little small town. /rant

Oh yeah, full disclosure so nobody thinks I'm just a jealous parent. My kid is in the same category, and I'm talking about parents of his peers in the same program here. Most are fine, a couple make me worry for their children in the next few years.
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I was lucky enough to see a dozen of Rob’s training sessions. He worked hard and invited criticism from his teammates. He had the raw talent but put in the work.
 
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