Finny
Well-Known Member
That's why you shouldn't join the military for the benefits. You join to protect and defend, everything else should only be the icing on the cake.
Riddle no longer 100% free to vets
- Thread starter matthew
- Start date
That's why you shouldn't join the military for the benefits. You join to protect and defend, everything else should only be the icing on the cake.
av8tr1
"Never tell me the odds!"
+one billion
av8tr1
"Never tell me the odds!"
I was in the AF reserves when GW1 was spinning up. We had a bunch of duchebags in my unit who were complaining that they only joined to go to college and never thought they would go to war.
I got into a fist fight with one of these idiots and nearly got a article 15 over this crap. Thankfully my CO stepped in and put a stop to it.
Military service is just that. Service to ones country, community, neighbors and family. You don't join for what you get. You join for what you give.
I got into a fist fight with one of these idiots and nearly got a article 15 over this crap. Thankfully my CO stepped in and put a stop to it.
Military service is just that. Service to ones country, community, neighbors and family. You don't join for what you get. You join for what you give.
As someone who only paid $1200 in and got way more than I invested, I can't complain about rolling back a few of the agreements.
Subsidized(socialist) programs are good sometimes!!
They just may not last forever. Moral of the story, use any government good deal as quickly as possible; when able.
Subsidized(socialist) programs are good sometimes!!
They just may not last forever. Moral of the story, use any government good deal as quickly as possible; when able.It is fine to think that but most branches of service sell what you can get except maybe the Marines. To chide people for thinking in such manner is really unfair. If it was really all about service why are people clamoring about retirement rollback and TRICARE dissolution? Truth is that many people joined for the benefits with little consideration about service. That is what the recruiters sold to them because that is what the services want to sell.
av8tr1
"Never tell me the odds!"
And there in lies the problem. Far too many people are not taught the value of self sacrifice. In many cases the very idea of giving ones all without expectation of compensation is often ridiculed. Too many of our country thinks of themselves first rather than whats best for the whole. Thankfully there are still a few who understand the concept and willingly give there all with no expectation of compensation. You're not going to see these people in the movies or writing books. They do their job and do it to the best of their ability. We as a nation need to do our all for these brave soldiers who give their all.
There is no doubt that the recruiters of all services hang the carrot of benefits out for new recruits and pay little attention to the sacrifices that come with the job. But there is no way one could not understand that with being a soldier comes the job and that job specifically is to protect the country and it's interests. And if you can't understand that, you shouldn't be accepted due to lack of intelligence.
Having said that, there is a promise made to our soldiers that must be kept. So when attempts are made to roll that back former soldiers are understandably up in arms. The job is not easy and while many soldiers never see combat, those that do give their all and should be justly protected for their sacrifice.
It isn't a perfect system and there are far too many options for abuse. As we see with many Rotor wing training programs and many other Vet focused programs.
I spend far too much time in the VA medical system. And I see abuse daily by both sides, from soldiers using their 20% hearing loss as a lottery ticket to win big to War Profiteers manipulating the system in the guise of "helping Vets". And God help anyone who speaks up and points out the emperor has no clothes. Retribution is swift and damaging. Never speak out against the group no matter how bad it might be.
In full disclosure I am a disabled Vet of the Gulf War. I hold a 90% rating and I used my VA benefits for my CFI and CFII rotor craft ratings only (You wouldn't believe what it took for me to get a FAA medical approved). I received my original training through Army flight training. Had I not been injured in the line of duty I might still be a solider. But I didn't do it for the benefits, I did it because I was taught the value of community service at a young age. As a "Army" brat, I had my fathers service to look up to. At an early age I started my community service in groups like the cub scouts and boy scouts and later the Civil Air Patrol (Though I no longer hold CAP in high regard). I expected nothing more than the ability to serve my fellow citizens. I am not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. And I have my flaws as well. But when it came to service to my country it wasn't for anything more than "service to my country".
We have lost our core values as a country. Now its all about what can you do for me rather than, in the immortal words "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." That no longer has meaning. We've become spoiled in our greatness. When our soldiers who were asked to fight during WW2 signed up the benefits we enjoy today didn't exist. It wasn't until after WW2 that these benefits came to be. So we as a country once understood the value of sacrifice for a greater good. Men and women both signed up to fight the greatest war this planet had ever seen without expectation of benefit. The signed up solely for the common good. Were there war profiteers, yes, but on the whole we understood sacrifice and the importance of doing the "right thing".
If people could once again value the concepts of self sacrifice and putting others first a lot (but not all) of these problems would go away. Soldiers wouldn't be looking for everything they could get for service and war profiteers (and this includes public schools as well) wouldn't be looking for a way to get rich on the backs of Veterans.
There is no doubt that the recruiters of all services hang the carrot of benefits out for new recruits and pay little attention to the sacrifices that come with the job. But there is no way one could not understand that with being a soldier comes the job and that job specifically is to protect the country and it's interests. And if you can't understand that, you shouldn't be accepted due to lack of intelligence.
Having said that, there is a promise made to our soldiers that must be kept. So when attempts are made to roll that back former soldiers are understandably up in arms. The job is not easy and while many soldiers never see combat, those that do give their all and should be justly protected for their sacrifice.
It isn't a perfect system and there are far too many options for abuse. As we see with many Rotor wing training programs and many other Vet focused programs.
I spend far too much time in the VA medical system. And I see abuse daily by both sides, from soldiers using their 20% hearing loss as a lottery ticket to win big to War Profiteers manipulating the system in the guise of "helping Vets". And God help anyone who speaks up and points out the emperor has no clothes. Retribution is swift and damaging. Never speak out against the group no matter how bad it might be.
In full disclosure I am a disabled Vet of the Gulf War. I hold a 90% rating and I used my VA benefits for my CFI and CFII rotor craft ratings only (You wouldn't believe what it took for me to get a FAA medical approved). I received my original training through Army flight training. Had I not been injured in the line of duty I might still be a solider. But I didn't do it for the benefits, I did it because I was taught the value of community service at a young age. As a "Army" brat, I had my fathers service to look up to. At an early age I started my community service in groups like the cub scouts and boy scouts and later the Civil Air Patrol (Though I no longer hold CAP in high regard). I expected nothing more than the ability to serve my fellow citizens. I am not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. And I have my flaws as well. But when it came to service to my country it wasn't for anything more than "service to my country".
We have lost our core values as a country. Now its all about what can you do for me rather than, in the immortal words "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." That no longer has meaning. We've become spoiled in our greatness. When our soldiers who were asked to fight during WW2 signed up the benefits we enjoy today didn't exist. It wasn't until after WW2 that these benefits came to be. So we as a country once understood the value of sacrifice for a greater good. Men and women both signed up to fight the greatest war this planet had ever seen without expectation of benefit. The signed up solely for the common good. Were there war profiteers, yes, but on the whole we understood sacrifice and the importance of doing the "right thing".
If people could once again value the concepts of self sacrifice and putting others first a lot (but not all) of these problems would go away. Soldiers wouldn't be looking for everything they could get for service and war profiteers (and this includes public schools as well) wouldn't be looking for a way to get rich on the backs of Veterans.
z987k
Well-Known Member
It's not socialist and it's not a government entitlement. It's part of the compensation package that was agreed upon when you signed up. End of story. Taking it away from people that lived up to their end of the agreement is theft.As someone who only paid $1200 in and got way more than I invested, I can't complain about rolling back a few of the agreements.
Subsidized(socialist) programs are good sometimes!!
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Actually, whether they were promised it or not, it's still socialism. And he's right: socialism isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Av8trl, thanks for your service. I know what you mean. I personally joined because I wanted to and enjoyed my time. I didn't do everything I wanted to but had fun doing the little I did. Saw the world and made really good friends. I don't think I am the only one that share such view of their time in.
So what is the difference between entitlement and compensation?
av8tr1
"Never tell me the odds!"
@@ATN_Pilot
Its very rare when socialism is a good thing. I always point to the VA as a perfect example of a socialist healthcare system. When bureaucrats make the decisions for the "common good" it never ends well.
Socialism is good for some but not all, ironic isn't it (See what I did there?) . It stifles creativity and punishes individuals (those that work hard) and rewards those who do the least amount of work. If you have no desire to excel or achieve the socialist system works great for you. You don't have to work hard. You can do the bare minimum and still get the same benefits as those that would work hard to get ahead. But at the end of the day it is a bureaucrat who decides how your life is led, not you.
I get that some people don't want to think for themselves. They want to be led, not lead. So socialism works for them.
I want to live my life and make my own decisions. I want to work hard and gamble on a reward with the understanding that I might fail and have to try again or move on to something else. That doesn't work in a socialist system.
Our country was founded on the 2nd option. At the heart of our country is the desire to live free, work hard and gamble on the rewards. That takes a sacrifice most don't understand or are willing to take.
Back on topic......
@@z987k You're absolutely right, however some have taken advantage of it to the detriment of others. That is what needs to be reined in. Both sides are guilty. Veterans and the companies that want to profit off the backs of Vets. We can't continue this way. On the rotorcraft side of the house (something I am intimately knowledgeable about) there are no jobs. Yet Vets are promised a job flying a helicopter the minute they complete training. Meanwhile these flight schools are getting rich knowing that once the Vet finishes the training they can toss them to the winds knowing there is no job out there for them flying helicopters. But according the their agreement with the VA both the Vet and the school met their contractual responsibilities. Eventually the VA like so many other government agencies will run out of money. Then no one will be able to enjoy those promised benefits.
Actually the VA and Congress has just as much responsibility here. Congress passed the laws allowing this to happen, the VA failed to oversee the system (as the do so well) and people (some Vets, not all, and War profiteers) took advantage of the situation. So its a 4 way screw up with everyone trying to blame the others.
The fact is we have finite resources here. If we don't manage them properly we get something like what we have with the VA health care system.
For example I had a cancer scare recently, took me 4 months to get to see a VA doctor about it. The kid who saw me hadn't even graduated medical school yet. He wrote up a report while a doctor I never saw approved it. The VA medical system is so overloaded they are now hiring medical students and promising to pay for medical school if they commit to the VA for a period of time. The system is rife with failure on a daily basis. And with all the issues like Agent Orange from Vietnam to Saddam's chemical weapons, that so many denied the existence of for so long, are medical students the right people to be making the diagnoses of these sorts of issues?
These same people have given us the GI bill mess. The VA forces Vets to work in a system that by design costs more. I've regularly spoke out against the 141 flight schools and their ridiculous costs. Yet the VA (or more specifically here Congress) forces Vets to spend 2 years getting a useless degree as a professional pilot. Where if they went to a local part 61 school they could finish the same training in a 4th of the time and a 3rd the cost.
For me to get my CFI and CFII ratings I had to spend nine months at a school, while the job I had been promised that was the whole point of me getting the ratings went up in smoke because I was taking too long,
And it isn't just with rotor wing training. Our collegiate system is broke and taking advantage of the.....well I am not sure what to call the idiots who pay for 100K art history or theater, somehow believing that it will put a roof over their heads or feed a family of 4. Meanwhile racking up enormous debt that will likely never be repaid. Thus making them slaves to the "system".
Somehow this insanity needs to stop. The very last people who should be making these decisions are the ones doing so. Funny enough its those dam bureaucrats again........
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av8tr1
"Never tell me the odds!"
Right back at cha!
z987k
Well-Known Member
How is compensation for a job socialism though?
Would you consider the paycheck you get from your employer or your employers contributions to your 401k an entitlement? No. You worked for them, as agreed when you signed up. This is the same thing. Just because it doesn't show up on your weekly paycheck does not mean it isn't compensation.
Regardless of what we call it, the important part is both parties agreed upon the terms of employment when the person signed up. Changing that later is beyond unacceptable and theft since it is money owed. If they want to change the terms for new people, that's fine but you have to honor your agreements.
av8tr1
"Never tell me the odds!"
An entitlement is something you don't earn, it's given freely. You are entitled to breath the air (for the moment), You don't have to compensate someone else for the enjoyment of air. You get it just because you exist.
Compensation is a trade. You get something because you gave something. Like money for goods or service. You mow my lawn for an hour, I compensate you for your time.
Welfare recipients get an entitlement because they exist and are not required to do any work to earn them. Not nessacarily a bad thing. I once had to get food stamps for a few months. It was a low point in my life. I am thankful they were there but man I sure worked hard to get away from them. The problem with entitlements like welfare and food stamps is people suddenly get something for nothing and don't feel obligated to make an effort to earn their keep. This isn't everyone on welfare or food stamps, but enough people have taken advantage of the system to ruin it for everyone.
As a Vet you agreed to write a blank check to the government to perform as a solider for a term of service. In exchange you were to be compensated with pay, and other benefits to include healthcare should you be injured in the line of duty or more germane, a discounted education. Note I said discounted education NOT a free education. You earned that education as did most Vets. You are being compensated for your time in service with an education that isn't free nor entitled. IT WAS EARNED. But it isn't a blank check either.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Because socialism has a definition, and something like VA healthcare meets that definition. It doesn't matter that it's compensation for a job.
A basic education should be free. Higher education is not needed for most jobs, and the citizens should not be paying for it. Why should a blue collar truck driver be paying for your college degree?
Entitlements and Compensation are near perfect terms. Your compensation from your company is an entitlement for work done.
Not trying to get political here but Republicans have turned "entitlement" into a negative word and in so doing linked it to government assistance.
At said low time in your life, I am sure you had worked some and contributed in terms of taxes towards the unemployment fund. So you in fact did work for it. So using your words "you get something because you gave something". The government takes away part of your income and keeps it for those periods where things get rough. So were you really wrong for being "entitled" to your money?
av8tr1
"Never tell me the odds!"
In my case yes. I had worked many years before that point. And paid much in taxes. However, it isn't that way for all.
I worked in IT for years. I would often donate my time to a few organizations to help under privileged kids in the metro DC area learn computer skills. I was on the technology committee for the DC metro Boys and Girls clubs. So I was always in the DC projects helping out with tech issues. I knew many low income people who made a "living" avoiding work and abusing the system. They were very proud of their efforts and bragged that they had never worked a day in their life. I often got to listen to these same people (who by the way were in positions of "leadership" at the local B&G clubs) instruct the kids on how to game the system. This after I would spend a good bit of time teaching classes to help these same kids get a head in life with valuable skills in technology. Eventually many of these kids would end up gaming the system the same way because that was the accepted way to live rather than work their way out of the projects. I even had jobs lined up for kids who showed promise. I can't recall a single one who is still with that program and has moved on to better things.
Eventually I gave up on trying to help these kids. The small bit of effort I put in was over shadowed by the environment of the projects and the people who lived there. Every few months I would have to go in and replace donated computers because people would steal them and sell them for other things. I think we once calculated all the lost equipment was somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 or 300K of computers donated by local companies. We had brand new Dell machines at one point (donated by Dell directly) at every club. Within something like 4 months they were all gone. And of course no one knew where they went, even though we had cameras and security systems in all the clubs. Even DC Metro police wouldn't come take a report as it was a waste of time.
There are people who prefer to just take what they can get, and will not work for it. These same people abuse the system every day.
While I can't speak for all republicans (I joined the libertarian team many years ago) I know that many believe strongly in entitlement programs. And its the abusers described above that they are against.
I gotta pay for his kids.
Like any other system orchestrated by mere mortals, there are loopholes. This one isn't perfect and definitely could be improved. I wouldn't argue that. I will also so that while there are people abusing the system, there are people legitimate using it as it was designed. The State Governments actually do a pretty good job cracking down. I believe I read once that the numbers of people abusing the system is not as high as people might think.
Veterans get their "entitlements" from government based on the contract(blank check) they have written. They are entitled to it per their contract.
I am however convinced the current construct we have with veterans today won't last much longer. I give it two more Congressional Sessions. Veterans are living longer than they did during WWI/WWII while the cost of healthcare is astronomical. The money has to come from somewhere.
The cost of education in this country has gone unchecked and I won't be surprised if the bottom falls out of some of these private institution in about 5 years. The cost of tuition is way past inflation. Just like the housing market, they will crash and restructure all while leaving students with degree more worthless than the recycled paper it is printed on. That is the real issue.
I don't think it should be free. It just needs to reasonably priced and affordable which the current situation is not. My taxes should not pay for a guy going to school to be a Medical doctor when in fact he will likely make more than me in my lifetime.
