"Required" VFR Clearance?

[MikeD]

You don't need a clearance to operate within a TRSA what makes you think you need one to depart out of one? Doesn't make any sense to me

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Two concepts being talked about here and being interwoven.

Not a clearance specifically, as in permission such that a TCA/Class B has; but you did have to contact clearance delivery to depart either IFR or VFR when PHX was a TRSA; since as stated, it was assumed you were participating unless otherwise stated.

 

[Joe28]

Taxi instructions at Appleton if you were paying attention.

#1You seem to be stuck on the concept that CD is some special place out in space where they do nothing other than give IFR clearances and to do anything other than that is just plain wrong.

#2The system is far more flexible than you. CD is just another chair in the same tower as the local and ground controllers. Telling a pilot on the ATIS to contact CD for taxi instructions before contacting ground when things are busy is no different than the ATIS telling pilots to call the tower frequency for all services when things are slow.

#3At 99% of the Class D airports, you contact Ground, head to the run-up area, taxi to the hold line and contact Tower when ready to go. At 3 (that I know of), the Tower personnel decided that they wanted to free up the Tower and the ATIS tells pilots to contact Ground when ready for departure instead. You can complain all you want that that's Tower's job and not Ground. But it's just a Tower dividing up responsibility in a different way that you might like it.

#1. Haha, have you read anything I have said? For one I never said that... Also, I have stated numerous times CD is used at radar towers to assign restrictions and squawk codes to VFR aircraft.

#2. You, sir, are wrong. You will never be given taxi instructions on the CD frequency unless there is 1 of 2 situations. A single controller is working all tower positions and doesn't notice what freq you call on. Or if special circumstances arise and CD is used as a 2nd ground control, which in that case it is not even a CD frequency at all. Putting on ATIS all departures contact tower frequency is a whole different ball game. Some prefer to do that just so there aren't pilot's stepping on each other on different frequencies that the controller is monitoring. It has nothing to do with who is sitting in which chair, which by the way 90% of time we stand anyway.

#3. I find it funny that you know everything about how a tower divides the workload when you've only been on one end of the mic. If you are saying that you were instructed on the ATIS to contact Ground Control freq. for a takeoff clearance either you are wrong or the tower was wrong for putting it on there. I don't have the exact semantics or paragraphs but the .65 says ground control freq is not to be used to issue control instructions for aircraft in the air. Does it happen? Occasionally, but that's mostly because like I said above, when a controller works all freqs. combined sometimes we don't notice which freq. you are calling on. But to advertise departures to contact ground for takeoff clearance will never happen simply "because that's how they divide the workload." However, if the tower freq. was OTS that would be a valid reason.

 

[Joe28]

Two concepts being talked about here and being interwoven.

Not a clearance specifically, as in permission such that a TCA/Class B has; but you did have to contact clearance delivery to depart either IFR or VFR when PHX was a TRSA; since as stated, it was assumed you were participating unless otherwise stated.

haha someone who gets it :beer:

you are about 10% of pilots haha

 

[Joe28]

Maybe you missed the point about Appleton, Wisconsin. Have you been to KATW during Oshkosh week? Sequencing of VFR departure aircraft to avoid frequency congestion on Ground is at least ONE reason for it to happen.

There may be others as well. :dunno:

Sequencing out of the ramp? Or on movement areas, aka taxiways?

 

[SteveC]

Sequencing out of the ramp? Or on movement areas, aka taxiways?

Sequencing out of the ramp, fields, ditches...anywhere they're parked at ATW during Oshkosh week. They act as a coordinator for the ground controller, getting an idea of which aircraft in which part of the airport are requesting departures, then they work with Ground to figure out who and in which order aircraft will be allowed to taxi. CD acts as the clearing house for incoming information, then tells the pilot to "monitor ground" from whence they will receive movement area taxi instructions. That way the Ground controller knows which pilots are ready to taxi and what direction they are heading and he can coordinate with tower to get the sequencing they all need to keep things running as smoothly as possible without tying up valuable Ground frequency bandwidth. There are too many aircraft during the busy pushes to use Ground as the initial contact point for departures, VFR or not.

Have you been to Oshkosh during the event? Or even Appleton or Fond du Lac for that matter? I don't know if it is still true, but they used to claim that Oshkosh handled more arrivals and departures during the busy parts of the event than any other airport in the world. Busier than O'Hare or Atlanta or JFK or anywhere.

edit to add:

It is estimated that 10,000–15,000 aircraft visit Wittman Field each year during the fly-in. ...

The large number of aircraft arrivals and departures during the fly-in week officially makes the Wittman Field FAA Control Tower the "busiest in the world" for that week.

FAA air traffic controllers say working the EAA AirVenture is the “Super Bowl” of air traffic control.

The FAA has staffed a tower at the EAA convention since the 1960s. FAA Air Traffic staffers (including controllers, supervisors and managers) compete from throughout the FAA’s new 17-state Central Terminal Service Area to work this event. In 2007, 145 air traffic professionals representing 45 facilities volunteered to staff the facilities at Oshkosh (OSH), Fond du Lac (FLD) and Fisk. Sixty-four controllers and 11 supervisors were ultimately selected. Controllers normally can only volunteer for a maximum of seven years at the EAA convention, to allow others a chance to work this temporary duty assignment. However, recent staffing shortages at some facilities have caused the FAA to use a few veteran controllers beyond the seven year limit.

The controllers are divided into teams of four persons each:
One Veteran controller serves as the team leader. Another Veteran works on the team as well. Each of these controllers will have three or more years of previous EAA AirVenture experience. Fifty percent of the controller workforce falls into this category.
At least one member of the team will have one to two years of EAA AirVenture experience. This group is identified as the Limited category and makes up 25 percent of the total controller population.
The final member of each team will be new to AirVenture duty and is identified as a Rookie. Controllers in this category total the final 25 percent of the controller workforce.

These teams stay together throughout the convention as they rotate through the control towers at OSH or FLD, FISK VFR Approach Control and the two mobile departure platforms known as MOOCOWs (Mobile Operating and Communications Workstations).

It’s important to note that even a “rookie” will have the years necessary to become certified as a Certified Professional Controller (CPC). All controllers, operations supervisors and the air traffic operations managers are certified for operations at their home facilities.

Some airports claim world's busiest airport based on criteria other than yearly numbers, usually based on numbers surrounding certain events.
Wittman Regional Airport, Oshkosh, Wisconsin
The world's busiest airport by traffic movements during the seven-day EAA AirVenture Oshkosh event. 25,000 traffic movements are handled in a week during the yearly event,[12] and air traffic controllers are picked by a competitive selection process to handle this traffic. During the event, a banner reading "WORLD'S BUSIEST CONTROL TOWER" is hung from the control tower.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Sequencing out of the ramp, fields, ditches...anywhere they're parked at ATW during Oshkosh week. They act as a coordinator for the ground controller, getting an idea of which aircraft in which part of the airport are requesting departures, then they work with Ground to figure out who and in which order aircraft will be allowed to taxi. CD acts as the clearing house for incoming information, then tells the pilot to "monitor ground" from whence they will receive movement area taxi instructions.

They must be idiots at Appleton. After all they don't do it in accordance with the Gospel according to Joe.

 

[SteveC]

They must be idiots at Appleton. After all they don't do it in accordance with the Gospel according to Joe.

Nah, I think he's just reading more into what you wrote than what you intended.

I can see his point about CD giving actual movement area taxi instructions, but I don't think that's what you meant to imply.

 

[germb747]

Here's all I found in the AIM about pre deperture clearances; none of it pertains to VFR.

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−2−1. Pre-taxi Clearance Procedures​

a. ​

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Certain airports have established pre-taxi
clearance programs whereby pilots of departing
instrument flight rules (IFR) aircraft may elect to
receive their IFR clearances before they start taxiing
for takeoff. The following provisions are included in
such procedures:​

1. ​

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Pilot participation is not mandatory.​

2.​

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Participating pilots call clearance delivery or
ground control not more than 10 minutes before
proposed taxi time.​

3.​

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IFR clearance (or delay information, if
clearance cannot be obtained) is issued at the time of
this initial call-up.​

4.​

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When the IFR clearance is received on
clearance delivery frequency, pilots call ground
control when ready to taxi.​

5.​

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Normally, pilots need not inform ground
control that they have received IFR clearance on
clearance delivery frequency. Certain locations may,
however, require that the pilot inform ground control
of a portion of the routing or that the IFR clearance
has been received.​

6.​

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If a pilot cannot establish contact on clearance
delivery frequency or has not received an IFR
clearance before ready to taxi, the pilot should contact
ground control and inform the controller accordingly.​

b.​

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Locations where these procedures are in effect​

are indicated in the Airport/Facility Directory.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Nah, I think he's just reading more into what you wrote than what you intended.

Could be. It is kinda silly to take the view that the CD seat at a tower should only be allowed to issue IFR clearances (and I guess VFR departure instructions but only at Class C, but I'm not even sure of his view on that), but that is what the use of "ludicrous" and the continued arguing of the point after the example of Appleton sound like.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Here's all I found in the AIM about pre deperture clearances; none of it pertains to VFR

Interesting read. Notice how things that were uncommon when described in the AIM sometimes never get updated? You underlined that it says that participation is voluntary - can you imagine not calling CD for your IFR clearance and then, when Ground tells you to call CD, responding, "I don't have to"?

Problem is that there are local procedures that vary. My home base is one of the three that doesn't want you to call Tower for takeoff until Ground specifically tells you to. Lihui (PHLI) is a Class C where GA aircraft on the east side of 17/35 don't speak to Ground at all.

One thing I noticed in the AIM some time ago (I haven't looked to see if it has changed) is that there's nothing that talks about the common practice of issuing VFR departure instructions via CD at Class C surface airports. And indeed, that practice, although widespread, is not universal.

 

[germb747]

IMO it's fair enough to hold pilots to these "localisms" if they're clearly spelled out in the Airport/Facility Directory or NOTAMS. But if not, ATC shouldn't get bent out of shape when pilots conform to what's standard everywhere else.

 

[A150K]

KABQ, a charlie requires all aircraft to contact CD prior to departure.

 

[Bumblebee]

Thanks for the responses. My buddy's experience was out of KSAC (Class D)..

no way. really? Let's go on another tower tour there Dave and straighten those guys out!irate:

 

[crazyjaydawg]

In discussion with a friend of mine, he brought up an experience where he was given a rash of (his perception) by ground for having not called clearance delivery beforehand. He was departing VFR from Class D airport into uncontrolled airspace and couldn't understand the requirement. I searched in the FAR/AIM and could find no indication that a departure clearance for a VFR flight from either Class C or D is required. Can anyone shed some regulatory light on this, please?

Sometimes ATIS has something at the end that says "contact clearance prior to ground"