The same as its always been. PHX was a TRSA back when I was getting my PPL and before becoming an ARSA a bit later.
"Required" VFR Clearance?
- Thread starter CDNPilotDave
- Start date
The same as its always been. PHX was a TRSA back when I was getting my PPL and before becoming an ARSA a bit later.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
That's the key in yours - not that it's a TRSA, but that it's a towered airport at which the ATIS advises pilots to contact CD for departure instructions. It could be a plain vanilla Class D and operate the same way.
There is no such thing as a "TRSA clearance" for VFR traffic. But of the alphabet airspace classes that have surface areas for airports, only Class B requires a "clearance" for VFR traffic.
Juliet Lima
New Member
a class D REQUIRING you to pick up a vrr clearance is just absurd. especially if your departing into uncontrolled airspace. worst case scenario is they tell you to fly a certain direction after departure. you should probably comply (or risk a PD), but once leaving a class D you can do whatever the hell you want.
the problem that arises is the vicinity of other classes of airspace. especially the class B, or to a lesser degree a class C, airspace.
the problem that arises is the vicinity of other classes of airspace. especially the class B, or to a lesser degree a class C, airspace.
CDNPilotDave
Well-Known Member
That was my buddy's take on the redirect and what prompted his question.
I appreciate all of the responses. Thanks.
Joe28
New Member
#1. I understand having VFR departures calling CD freq at Class C airports but a regular Class D, VFR tower (aka NO RADAR), having VFR departures call up CD is absolutely ludicrous from both a pilot and controller stand point. What are you going to tell them? Ummm, squawk VFR contact ground? Completely pointless. In a radar environment aka Class C or Class D with TRSA, VFR departures are told to contact CD so they can be put on a local VFR or IFR code so they can be radar identified and issued additional restrictions, if needed. If a VFR Class D tower (once again, no radar) is telling VFR departures to contact CD, I would be interested to know what instructions they are receiving. I am a private pilot that has flown into numerous Class D's and this has NEVER once happened to me at a VFR Class D tower... never! The only thing I can think the ATIS would have said was IFR departures contact CD, which should not even be on there because it is implied unless stated otherwise, as others have noticed from time to time "all departures contact ground control freq."
#2. I have discussed this topic ad nauseam with pilots and the truth of the matter is 99% of pilots don't know what the hell kind of service a TRSA provides, even the ones that operate within one. When talking about a "TRSA clearance" we are kind of talking semantics here. You are right in the sense that you do not need a "TRSA clearance" to operate in a TRSA like you would a Class B. That is correct. If you, Pilot X, are flying around smashing bugs in your 152 you can fly within the TRSA without talking to anybody, albeit you stay clear of the Delta, unless you talk to tower. However, since it is a condensed area of traffic, the FAA decided to add the TRSA to essentially provide flight following to VFR aircraft in addition to the normal IFR service that transits the airspace. Due to traffic volume, it is encouraged that you participate, although once again, not required.
However, when you are on the ground at a Class D TRSA, that is a little different story. You will either (A) depart with TRSA services or (B) depart VFR on your own choosing not to participate with the services. All aircraft are assumed to be participating in TRSA services unless instructed otherwise. The pilot must state Negative TRSA service or something similar that does not have any ambiguity. If you do not tell them you are not participating, then what you are receiving on CD frequency is essentially a "TRSA clearance." You will be given a restriction, such as maintain VFR at or below XXX, a departure frequency for flight following, and a local squawk code. You will not directly be told you are cleared to enter the TRSA like you would a Class B clearance but, essentially what you are receiving is a "TRSA clearance." If you choose to not follow those restrictions then you advise the tower and depart VFR on your own without flight following as you would a VFR tower.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
I disagree. "Tower," "ground" and "CD" (and to some degree even App/Dep control at certain airports) are nothing more than the way an airport based tower facility divides the workload. Some divide it more (with multiple Tower frequencies) ; some less (Class D airports without a dedicated CD at all).
I don't find anything "ludicrous" or "pointless" about the choices that tower managers and personnel make to divide their tasks and traffic flow, so long as, if out of the ordinary, it's in the AFD or broadcast on ATIS.
You might as well find it "ludicrous" when in the middle of the night at a sleepy Class C you hear over the ATIS, "All tower and approach/departure frequencies are on 1xx.x." Or you might find it "pointless" when the Class D ATIS directs you to contact ground after your run up, rather than the tower.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
I've been to a few. Pueblo, Colorado had radar capability. But, like you, unless I'm directed otherwise, I will call ground and not CD for a VFR departure.
So far I've only been to one Class D where VFR pilots were directed to contact CD: Appleton, WI during Oshkosh where there was so much traffic, they apparently found it easier to use the CD seat as the preliminary coordination point for departing traffic, leaving ground controllers free to monitor ground traffic without distraction.
Joe28
New Member
If you don't think it's dumb for a VFR Tower to have a pilot contact CD before calling ground, then I would like to know what useful instructions you have received at a VFR Tower on a CD freq. because I can't think of a single instruction that would be useful.
And I also do not find it ludicrous EVER to contact ground pre-taxi rather than tower. That's what the frequency is for, even if both positions are combined. Ground freq is for movement of aircraft on the ground and tower is for the air. That's the way it should be. There's nothing worse than "entitled" pilots calling tower in the middle of busy traffic clogging up the frequency for taxi when there is indeed a ground controller. Happens all the time.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Well, if your definition of "ludicrous" is "I wouldnt do it that way and anyone who doesn't do it my way is an idiot" I guess you're right.
If by that definition Appelton's decision to use CD to free up Ground for taxi control during OshKosh was ludicrous, so be it.
I think the point that Mark is making is that its not up to us as pilots to wonder, in this case, how ludicrous or not it is for a particular facility to require us to call CD or not. If it's in the AFD or on the ATIS, then we do it. If not, then we contact ground. The "why" behind the issue or behind how the particular ATC facility does business in this case is beyond the scope of what pilots really need to be worried about. To me, it's a small issue, if even an issue at all.
Joe28
New Member
That still doesn't answer what useful instructions you have ever received at a VFR Tower on CD freq. It's never happened to me because there is no reason for it. I really am interested to hear though.
Joe28
New Member
I understand the point you are making, you are correct that as a VFR departure you are to contact ground unless instructed otherwise, as you might be at TRSA towers, Class C tower, or other radar capable towers. What he said is that he's been told to contact CD freq at a VFR tower as a VFR departure and there is no reason for this to EVER happen. Which is why I ask what instructions he has received as a VFR departure at a VFR tower because there is nothing useful they would tell you on CD freq.
Maybe you missed the point about Appleton, Wisconsin. Have you been to KATW during Oshkosh week? Sequencing of VFR departure aircraft to avoid frequency congestion on Ground is at least ONE reason for it to happen.
There may be others as well. :dunno:
CDNPilotDave
Well-Known Member
This comes closest to addressing my original query about the regulatory aspect, although I am not sure that ATIS or AFD are regulatory. For instance, if I'm landing a squirrely little tailwheel and the ATIS "Landing and Departing runway" would have me landing with a tailwind (direct or even worse: quartering) above my comfort level, I would certainly request a more favorable runway. Wouldn't ATIS or AFD be informational? My original post was looking for a clear cut guideline or series of guidelines that say "Thou shalt contact Clearance, then contact Ground, then ...". If one is familiar with local procedures then it's a no-brainer - "We always have done it that way." What about the case where one is not familiar?
The AFD and/or ATIS should cover if someone is not familiar. And in the landing example you give, nothing says you can't make a request to tower for a runway that better suits your needs, regardless of what the ATIS is saying.
CDNPilotDave
Well-Known Member
Agreed. But what says "You must contact Departure Clearance"?
91.129(i) refers to "...an appropriate clearance..." and "...ATC..." but
1)where does it say that "Departure Clearance" must be contacted prior to contacting ground or even more specific, what constitutes "ATC" and
2) in what order should they be contacted?
Are you talking Clearance Delivery and what says you must contact them? Again, that'd be local airport dependant and most likely addressed by the ATIS or AFD on how that particular airport does business. Some may operate that way, others may not. Some may want to issue IFR clearances by the ground controller, others may want a dedicated Clearance Delivery freq. It just depends on the particular ATC facility.
As stated in this thread already, the majority of Class D airports utilize ground and local (tower) control freqs, and those constitute ATC. If there was a CD freq, it'd be contacted first prior to the others, and would likely be mentioned in the ATIS to do so.
jhugz
Well-Known Member
You don't need a clearance to operate within a TRSA what makes you think you need one to depart out of one? Doesn't make any sense to me
The only time you ever need the clearance VFR is for Bravo Airspace.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Taxi instructions at Appleton if you were paying attention.
You seem to be stuck on the concept that CD is some special place out in space where they do nothing other than give IFR clearances and to do anything other than that is just plain wrong.
The system is far more flexible than you. CD is just another chair in the same tower as the local and ground controllers. Telling a pilot on the ATIS to contact CD for taxi instructions before contacting ground when things are busy is no different than the ATIS telling pilots to call the tower frequency for all services when things are slow.
At 99% of the Class D airports, you contact Ground, head to the run-up area, taxi to the hold line and contact Tower when ready to go. At 3 (that I know of), the Tower personnel decided that they wanted to free up the Tower and the ATIS tells pilots to contact Ground when ready for departure instead. You can complain all you want that that's Tower's job and not Ground. But it's just a Tower dividing up responsibility in a different way that you might like it.