mooneyguy
been around forever
What happen to the other 1/2 cent?
My Opinion is usually NOT worth 2 full cents
:crazy:
Republic to Operate 12 Embraer E170 Jets for Midwest!
- Thread starter CRJDriver
- Start date
My Opinion is usually NOT worth 2 full cents
:crazy:
bike21
9-5 Ruins Lives
Careful! I actually miss fishing for bass and such. Fly fishing out here rules and all, but sometimes I miss sitting in my boat with a sixer! Yep, that is the good ol' Midwest side of me!
Ok, done with the hijack...carry on!
Airdale
Well-Known Member
Man I've got this beautiful brook out here in old Dirty Jersey that flows through deep in the woods. Can't fly fish it cuz all the trees, but some little top water flies on a light spinner are deadly.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Because Republic 1) needs to put their expensive new 170's to work and 2) I don't think he cares about gaining control of the 717's, he wanted collateral for the money he gave them, so he could sell in case Midwest goes under.
Google "DIP loan" or "DIP financing". Although Midwest isn't in bankruptcy (yet?) I would imagine it is structured the same.
SoCalAprch
Well-Known Member
Don't be ashamed. You didn't make the choice to use us as a barganing chip. Yes we will get the birds and the collective f yous from other pilots but people need to realize we had nothing to do with this decision and theres nothing we can do short of quitting our job to change anything. Off the bat I don't like it. Now I don't know how its all gonna turn out so we will wait and see. Good luck to the Midwest/RAH guys. Maybe they should just arm wrestle to see who gets to fly em.
inside0ut
Well-Known Member
Huh? He has said many times in his (sometimes) weekly letter that he has no plans to ever get into a wholly owned airline. He had the option to do it with the Frontier birds and flat out said no.
I may drink the kool-aid at times, but I dont think that will ever happen.
*shrugs* Then again, give it 10 min. Who knows whats next.
meyers9163
Well-Known Member
Very true! I just heard from former members of your union and members here in regards to something about BB wanting his own major! Thus when the Frontier financing went through we discussed it and just were discussing this yet again. Interesting none the less.
Honestly I am glad to see most of you are pissed! Just got a text from an annoying friend of mine, former classmate perhaps is a better way to word it, who was bragging about this new "codeshare." Amazing when I text him back that this isnt a good thing and to read RAH on forum to hear why, he simply replies, "It means no furloughs and if it were PSA you'd be happy about it." ARGH! Not bashing ATP but he went there as a student. Knew NOTHING about the industry when we were in CFI school, had a connection and got hired at 500 hours at RAH and wanted to go to TSA (where he would have been on furlough). Anyways I've lost my breath trying to have meaningful discussion with this tool in CMH on the 135. So to end this rant its just great to see MOST, nearly 90% of your group, understands why this is terrible not only because breaking (potential breaking) of your own scope but also the fact Midwest guys out the door!
Just amazed me! But as I had before mentioned this is just the percentage we have at all airlines that either A)doesnt understand or B) is just that stupid and only worried about themself. We have them here at PSA as well. But as we all said when your group is only 500 instead of 2000 you dont see as many.
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
A little historical perspective.
RAH didn't invent the move of giving cash to a major. AWAC and MESA did this years before. Mesa gave a chunk of change to AmWest years ago, and AWAC bought a bunch of US. Both airlines did that to put their assets to work. AWAC (Eastshore Aviation) also had a seat on the board. AWAC deal also put the squeeze on PSA's flying as US didn't really need 50 seaters at the time. I think AWAC sunk 125 mil in the deal.
In late 1999 or early 2000 CHQ (way before the whole RAH deal came about) signed a codeshare with TWA. I personally asked the VP of Ops why BB did that. He indicated to me that BB just wanted to place the planes as the market would absorb them should TWA go under, also if TWA was to go away, someone would have to provide the lift.
TWA got bought by AMR, the 50seaters (12) were a scope no-no. BB brokered a deal with AmWest, and placed those 12 jets in CMH. As AmWest came under the cash gun, and neglected to send us our money until the 12th hour, the planes would sit fueled up in CMH for a potential journey to IND, which never occured. AmWest pulled out of CMH, and gave BB the option to go to PHX. He said thanks, but no thanks, as there was no way to support the operation out there.
Some how he got the planes a 3rd coat of paint in DL colors, when DL didn't need the capacity.
Part II
Republic, like anyother public company, has the responsibility to make money for the stockholders. Sorry, and at times it sucks, but it's true. Well before most of us were in the industry, there was a company that would come in, and undercut the established carriers by having lower fares and pilots paid less than industry standard. Revenue, profit and thus pilot pay was eroded.
Today, Southwest airlines is hearlded as a "game-changer" and the airline most want to work for. You can argue for how great they treat their people, and I know that is true, but the business facts remain the same. Now they are some of the highest paid pilots. Partially because their pay has increased, but mainly because everyone else's pay has come down.
Part III CBAs and you
As you all know, I worked at RAH. I was there when the current CBA was negotiated and voted in. I voted YES on it. I'll tell you why.
When the CBA was written we had 50 ERJs and 500 pilots. The agreement presented was a far better deal than we had previously. Most importantly, was the SCOPE clause as there was a threat of a whipsaw carrier.
Why were the 70 seat rates not what most of you feel they "should have been"? We had ZERO on the property. I don't know about you, but why hedge bets on things that might happen? So our negotiators put the bulk of our money in the 50 seaters as those were our future at the time. I'm sure the people on the RAH MEC realize that the pay rates are undervalued, and will adjust them accordingly in the next negotiation. RAH is flying mainline aircraft now, and it's make-or-break time for a mainline contract.
In fact, no one in anywhere would have believed the explosion of growth that happened since the in-place CBA was signed at RAH. It's really unprecidented and was in no way predicatable at any level. Now it's time to catch up the CBA to the company. However, since I'm not there, I have no input.
No "mainline" just up and had great workrules and pay by the grace of God. Pilots, at one point, got fed up, went on strike for a major gain contract. Mostly it was done in the 50's under regulation. Today, we have an era where this is possible again, in my opinion. At no time since de-regulation has there been so little cash available for start-up low-priced capacity. Pilot groups, especially ones with a niche market like RAH and the EJet have, don't have the fear of Bob's startup airline.
Moving on to Midwest.
It's a shame that they are in such a tough spot. The company that started as Kimberly-Clark's flight department has filled a great niche for years. I know alot of guys that used it as their stepping stone to get on to legacies or cargo giants. The only question I have is about their scope clause to protect their work. One airline recently chased $$$ over scope. They were one of 2 in DHL's US network, and were 49% owned by DHL. Now the airline is shutting down as DHL transferred the work to UPS.
Scope, and it's importance can not be overstated. If you have a chance to vote on a CBA, and there is no scope clause, I'd vote no. Sure you might work 1 day a month and make 300,000/yr, but if there is nothing to ensure that you will still have a job, then the CBA is nothing but an expensive paperweight.
More about BB.
I remember back to June of '99 when I first saw him in the office. Through the next 8 years, I'd run across him occasionally. While I only really met him and his wife once, at a hog roast no less, he always remembered by name and would shake my hand. I'm not entirely sure he knew what I did, but he was always very coridal. Actually, except for 1 of them, all the upper level guys were very social.
BB is an opportunist, and one that is very successful at that. While he won't say publicly he wants his own show, and I have no empirical evidence to say as much, he wants his own show. He won't say as much publically because of the political impact on present business partners. Who in their right minds would renew an agreement with someone with publically stated intentions of using the money you give them to become a competitor. With his accomplishments and proven track record in the industry, why hasn't he been scooped up by some board to run an airline? He didn't build CHQ from the ground up, like Atkins (?) out in Utah. His specialty is taking near-bankrupt airlines and turning them into power houses. There's no glut of work for someone with that talent in this industry.
Anyway, that's my take on it....not that anyone asked.
This and $2 will buy you a cold beer.
RAH didn't invent the move of giving cash to a major. AWAC and MESA did this years before. Mesa gave a chunk of change to AmWest years ago, and AWAC bought a bunch of US. Both airlines did that to put their assets to work. AWAC (Eastshore Aviation) also had a seat on the board. AWAC deal also put the squeeze on PSA's flying as US didn't really need 50 seaters at the time. I think AWAC sunk 125 mil in the deal.
In late 1999 or early 2000 CHQ (way before the whole RAH deal came about) signed a codeshare with TWA. I personally asked the VP of Ops why BB did that. He indicated to me that BB just wanted to place the planes as the market would absorb them should TWA go under, also if TWA was to go away, someone would have to provide the lift.
TWA got bought by AMR, the 50seaters (12) were a scope no-no. BB brokered a deal with AmWest, and placed those 12 jets in CMH. As AmWest came under the cash gun, and neglected to send us our money until the 12th hour, the planes would sit fueled up in CMH for a potential journey to IND, which never occured. AmWest pulled out of CMH, and gave BB the option to go to PHX. He said thanks, but no thanks, as there was no way to support the operation out there.
Some how he got the planes a 3rd coat of paint in DL colors, when DL didn't need the capacity.
Part II
Republic, like anyother public company, has the responsibility to make money for the stockholders. Sorry, and at times it sucks, but it's true. Well before most of us were in the industry, there was a company that would come in, and undercut the established carriers by having lower fares and pilots paid less than industry standard. Revenue, profit and thus pilot pay was eroded.
Today, Southwest airlines is hearlded as a "game-changer" and the airline most want to work for. You can argue for how great they treat their people, and I know that is true, but the business facts remain the same. Now they are some of the highest paid pilots. Partially because their pay has increased, but mainly because everyone else's pay has come down.
Part III CBAs and you
As you all know, I worked at RAH. I was there when the current CBA was negotiated and voted in. I voted YES on it. I'll tell you why.
When the CBA was written we had 50 ERJs and 500 pilots. The agreement presented was a far better deal than we had previously. Most importantly, was the SCOPE clause as there was a threat of a whipsaw carrier.
Why were the 70 seat rates not what most of you feel they "should have been"? We had ZERO on the property. I don't know about you, but why hedge bets on things that might happen? So our negotiators put the bulk of our money in the 50 seaters as those were our future at the time. I'm sure the people on the RAH MEC realize that the pay rates are undervalued, and will adjust them accordingly in the next negotiation. RAH is flying mainline aircraft now, and it's make-or-break time for a mainline contract.
In fact, no one in anywhere would have believed the explosion of growth that happened since the in-place CBA was signed at RAH. It's really unprecidented and was in no way predicatable at any level. Now it's time to catch up the CBA to the company. However, since I'm not there, I have no input.
No "mainline" just up and had great workrules and pay by the grace of God. Pilots, at one point, got fed up, went on strike for a major gain contract. Mostly it was done in the 50's under regulation. Today, we have an era where this is possible again, in my opinion. At no time since de-regulation has there been so little cash available for start-up low-priced capacity. Pilot groups, especially ones with a niche market like RAH and the EJet have, don't have the fear of Bob's startup airline.
Moving on to Midwest.
It's a shame that they are in such a tough spot. The company that started as Kimberly-Clark's flight department has filled a great niche for years. I know alot of guys that used it as their stepping stone to get on to legacies or cargo giants. The only question I have is about their scope clause to protect their work. One airline recently chased $$$ over scope. They were one of 2 in DHL's US network, and were 49% owned by DHL. Now the airline is shutting down as DHL transferred the work to UPS.
Scope, and it's importance can not be overstated. If you have a chance to vote on a CBA, and there is no scope clause, I'd vote no. Sure you might work 1 day a month and make 300,000/yr, but if there is nothing to ensure that you will still have a job, then the CBA is nothing but an expensive paperweight.
More about BB.
I remember back to June of '99 when I first saw him in the office. Through the next 8 years, I'd run across him occasionally. While I only really met him and his wife once, at a hog roast no less, he always remembered by name and would shake my hand. I'm not entirely sure he knew what I did, but he was always very coridal. Actually, except for 1 of them, all the upper level guys were very social.
BB is an opportunist, and one that is very successful at that. While he won't say publicly he wants his own show, and I have no empirical evidence to say as much, he wants his own show. He won't say as much publically because of the political impact on present business partners. Who in their right minds would renew an agreement with someone with publically stated intentions of using the money you give them to become a competitor. With his accomplishments and proven track record in the industry, why hasn't he been scooped up by some board to run an airline? He didn't build CHQ from the ground up, like Atkins (?) out in Utah. His specialty is taking near-bankrupt airlines and turning them into power houses. There's no glut of work for someone with that talent in this industry.
Anyway, that's my take on it....not that anyone asked.
This and $2 will buy you a cold beer.
SoCalAprch
Well-Known Member
It's easy to see how someone uneducated in the industry would think this is a good thing for RAH however as Myers said 90+% of us know it is not and it is going to turn into an epic whipsaw attempt. Our union reps are currently in talks with the Midwest union guys and hopefully something will come of it. I don't know what but it will be interesting to see how it plays out between the two unions.
Hopefully the fingers and scab words will be at a minimum through all this.
Hopefully the fingers and scab words will be at a minimum through all this.
SoCalAprch
Well-Known Member
Interesting history into the makings of all this.
meyers9163
Well-Known Member
AMEN man! Lets hope the unions can work it out!
Too bad you all werent ALPA and perhaps it would be worked out quicker. Honestly its been great to see most Midwest guys know this isnt RAHs fault either. They have directly pointed the finger at their Management and that's great to see.
that's a different can of worms entirely.
meyers9163
Well-Known Member
I dont think this will exactly happen. RAH is not to blame here. Well the pilot group by any means. Nor will the midwest pilots look at RAH pilots as the ones to blame. They understand its their won managment and will act accordingly. RAH union appears to have already made step to reach out to midwest in some sort of way. It appears RAH pilots have taken all the proper steps.
MusketeerMan
Well-Known Member
I'm hoping it doesn't get too ugly...it appears as if they're moving full steam ahead here though. In Flica, we've already got MCI listed for a voluntary/involuntary bid selection on the RP certificate. Could get interesting.
bike21
9-5 Ruins Lives
Not always man. I have gotten the cold shoulder many times just for being the perceived evil job stealing RJ driver. Which in fact, is accurate on one level I guess. Most of us collectively know that it isn't one single factor that has brought us to where we are, however that won't stop a few guys from acting like asshats towards RAH guys.
I know what you are saying and I hope the two pilot groups can see through the BS, but you gotta admit it would be tough for some to stay even keeled.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
I wish one of them would try it . . .
Airdale
Well-Known Member
Dude, I'd love to see them take on the Marine. I'll be there on the ramp with a case of cold ones after you tie his butt to his face. :laff:
Polar, excellent post. Thank you for your insight. You're a smart dude....
CRJDriver
Well-Known Member
Polar, you've got way too much time on your hands. Shouldn't you be out in Korea sitting reserve with Mr. Lallis?
falconvalley
Absentee Dad of the OOTSK, Runner, Cat Frustrator
Just as the question was asked when Skyway was retiring the Beech "How is an airline with 12 Dorniers (no more being made and little support) gonna be run?"- I'm gonna ask this: How is an airline with 9 717's gonna be run? Granted, they've got Boeing for support, but look at what's happened to the 717. Seriously- where are they going with this? Other than that, I don't know what else to say.