"Remember 3407" Airline Labor Reform Act

Kestrel452 said:
There isn't anything congress can do about that
Click to expand...

Uh, actually, they can. And did.

Just ask the execs at Citi, GM, Chrysler....

However, I agree with Mike. Focus on the work rules. Highlight the fact that there are numerous studies showing a link between fatigue and performance, and that the duty time rules do not prevent high levels of fatigue.
 
MikeD said:
I agree with you that pilot pay is piss poor; but pay wasn't what put 3407 into the dirt. and because of that, Congress isn't going to want to hear about something that didn't directly affect the accident; especially when no one is forced to work those jobs. It sucks, I know, but that's just how I believe Congress will look at it: "yes, their pay is low.....but aren't they trained to recover correctly from that thing called a stall?" (idiot congressman speaking).

See where I'm coming from? Fight the more direct battles first.....the near rocks are the important ones right now, the far rocks can always come later
Click to expand...

I totally see where you're coming from. Absolutely. I just feel that the issues with the poor business management and lousy pay should be addressed as safety concerns. For the reasons I stated in my last post, addressing those issues could prevent another bird from diving into the dirt. Fresh, well rested, well paid pilots will be happier and more focused, making their ability to recover from the stall a bit sharper than those who are fatigued and....>sigh<......I think you get what I'm saying. :crazy: I just really hope things will start to change for the better. It's certainly overdue.


::edit:: poor grammar again. :o
 
LX40 said:
I totally see where you're coming from. Absolutely. I just feel that the issues with the poor business management and lousy pay should be addressed as safety concerns. For the reasons I stated in my last post, addressing those issues could prevent another bird from diving into the dirt. Fresh, well rested, well paid pilots will be happier and more focused, making their ability to recover from the stall a bit sharper than those who are fatigued and....>sigh<......I think you get what I'm saying. :crazy: I just really hope things will start to change for the better. It's certainly overdue.


::edit:: poor grammar again. :o
Click to expand...

To our credit, LX, the cockpit crew's pay on flight 3407 was indeed a hot issue with the press. :bandit:
Although my ONE gripe about the mission statement is with #3. I think it should just say that the pay structure needs to be fixed rather than just saying entry level pilots need a minimum wage because it makes it sound like the guys in the middle and up top dont need anything.
 
Kestrel452 said:
To our credit, LX, the cockpit crew's pay on flight 3407 was indeed a hot issue with the press. :bandit:
Although my ONE gripe about the mission statement is with #3. I think it should just say that the pay structure needs to be fixed rather than just saying entry level pilots need a minimum wage because it makes it sound like the guys in the middle and up top dont need anything.
Click to expand...


Pay is a hot issue with every pilot.

*Regional airline pilot low pay* is what's hot with the press.

If we press higher and higher numbers upon the industry, we could well find ourselves butting up against the Law Of Unintended Consequences.

You'll note that there are provisions in the Project that call for correcting shortcomings in the Collective Bargaining Process. When a fifty seat jet pilot finds his pay ratcheted up to only the Federally set 121-minimum wage, and finds out that his pay is now the same as that 19 seat turboprop driver, eyebrows will be raised.

I initially had a concept of a minimum wage for each seatclass. I abandoned it because of metrics. If we up the wage, say, for 50 seat jets by the same percent that we'd have to up the wage for 19 seat turboprops, the overall net increase gets somewhat astronomical. Maintaining current spreads in rates becomes a little silly.

Therefore, you set a minimum baseline for everybody, fix the bargaining process, and let each group of pilots iron the corrections they'd like to see with their respective companies.

A knee-jerk, one-size-fits-all Final Solution will only restrict necessary change later on in time. Applying a baseline and supplying the tools to improve things from there gives each group of pilots in the industry the liberty to individually address their concerns.

Your individual input is always welcome, but keep in mind that you are, after all, one individual. We're looking at the concerns of the industry for all. If we're going to make unilateral changes, we need to be sure that we make minimal ones and let due process sort out the rest.
 
Firebird2XC said:
Pay is a hot issue with every pilot.

*Regional airline pilot low pay* is what's hot with the press.

If we press higher and higher numbers upon the industry, we could well find ourselves butting up against the Law Of Unintended Consequences.

.
Click to expand...

Agree. And one I can think of is if Congress beings legislating regional pilot pay as too low and needs to be raised; what's there to keep them from then determining that mainline pay is too high, and needs to be lowered?

If that happened, the whole Remember3407 cause will go from hero to zero real quick.

Once you let Congress's grubby fingers in your pie, you'll never get them out.
 
MikeD said:
Agree. And one I can think of is if Congress beings legislating regional pilot pay as too low and needs to be raised; what's there to keep them from then determining that mainline pay is too high, and needs to be lowered?

If that happened, the whole Remember3407 cause will go from hero to zero real quick.

Once you let Congress's grubby fingers in your pie, you'll never get them out.
Click to expand...

Not to mention, as previously mentioned, the concept of 'money grab'.

Making the government force a company to give us what we think is appropriate because of how we feel is flirting with Communism. I think that's the last thing anyone seriously wants.

Modifying the low end of the scale so pilots have sufficient tools to make healthy choices and come to work rested, ready, and eager is something the public will support. It keeps the goal focused on one that's common: safety for all involved.

We're walking a thin line between guaranteeing an environment that enables safe job performance and fulfilling a very small group's sense of entitlement.

I've never really bought in to the concept of pilot entitlement. That sort of self-aggrandizing thinking only makes one less objective. Airlines are a business- a certain balance must be struck.
 
The US Senate had a meeting on this yesterday (Wednesday). I watched most of it on C-span last night. They are very interested in making sure that all potential employers check out the pass/fail FAA check ride record of every applicant (which I thought they did anyway). You can watch the video of it on C-span's website and read about who was there here:

http://www.c-spanarchives.org/library/index.php?main_page=product_video_info&products_id=286950-1

This is quite interesting.
Tim
 
JaceTheAce'sDad said:
The US Senate had a meeting on this yesterday (Wednesday). I watched most of it on C-span last night. They are very interested in making sure that all potential employers check out the pass/fail FAA check ride record of every applicant (which I thought they did anyway). You can watch the video of it on C-span's website and read about who was there here:

http://www.c-spanarchives.org/library/index.php?main_page=product_video_info&products_id=286950-1

This is quite interesting.
Tim
Click to expand...

They ARE supposed to check the pass-fail of every pilot applicant. That's the whole point of the PRIA stuff.

I think when they find that some employers have been negligent, they'll take a deeper look.
 
Lawmakers to Draft Bill on Commuter-Airline Safety
<hr style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" size="1"> <!-- / icon and title --> <!-- message --> The following came from The Wall Street Journal.
__________

Lawmakers to Draft Bill on Commuter-Airline Safety
By JOSH MITCHELL
WASHINGTON -- House lawmakers said Thursday they planned to draft legislation designed to improve commuter-airline safety, responding to the Feb. 12 crash near Buffalo, N.Y., that killed 50 people.

The legislation will address various issues that have arisen in the investigation into the commuter-airline crash, including low pay for pilots, pilot fatigue, minimum training standards and aircraft inspections, said Rep. Jerry F. Costello (D., Ill.), chairman of the aviation subcommittee of the House Transportation Committee.

Mr. Costello opened a hearing on the crash by pledging to draft legislation as early as Thursday.

"I am concerned these issues could be symptomatic of a larger trend driven by economic pressures," Mr. Costello said. He added that Congress must ensure that smaller, regional airlines and major carriers are adhering to the same safety standards.

Rep. Peter A. DeFazio (D., Ore.) said the Federal Aviation Administration has set a "low bar" for minimum safety standards..

"We've got to stop the race to the bottom," Mr. DeFazio said. "It's time for action...We need to set a much, much higher minimum bar."

The hearing was the second this week in Congress to examine safety issues raised by the Feb. 12 crash near Buffalo, N.Y., of a flight operated by commuter carrier Colgan Air Inc., a unit of Pinnacle Airlines Corp. Flying under contract to serve Continental Airlines Inc., the Bombardier Q400 turboprop smashed into a house approaching the airport.

On Wednesday, FAA chief Randy Babbitt told a Senate panel that tighter government regulations and tougher industry self-policing are needed to improve commuter airline safety. Mr. Babbitt laid out a series of initiatives to ensure a single level of safety between major airlines and their commuter partners. Such carriers typically fly smaller planes serving smaller markets, or they shuttle passengers to and from major hub airports around the U.S.

_________________________________________________________________

Now's the time to pick up the letter writing.
 
Remember guys, you can feel free to use the letter I wrote for sending to anyone you think can help us. It's been gone over by several other posters before so don't worry, it's in pretty good shape. I wholeheartedly agree with firebird that the letter writing needs to be stepped up. Remember, it's OUR careers on the line here!



Dear Sir or Madam,

I am writing to your because I am deeply concerned about the state of airline labor. I am sure you are aware of the recent wave of incidents that have plagued commercial flights for the past year. No matter the major cause of the crashes, one undeniable fact is that airlines are putting less experienced pilots in the cockpit.

Airlines experienced a mild pilot shortage before this recession and subsequently hired pilots who had very little experience. This was due to decreased hiring minimums, which made these jobs flying passenger planes available to less experienced individuals. This trend the airlines had is one of self-destruction, and also eroded the safety that the flying public once took for granted.

Due to the recession which has taken place, thousands of pilots have been furloughed. The pilots who are still working have had their salary cut repeatedly, sometimes by more than half. These pilots are getting wages that do not suit the skill or responsibility the job requires. A First Officer makes anywhere from $16,000 - $30,000 for their first few years. Along with decreasing pay, the cost for flight training has gone up exponentially. A 4 year flight education from a university can now cost over $200,000. Because of this, there is a shortage of well qualified individuals. Instead of raising wages to attract these types of pilots, the airlines have lowered their standards for hiring and training events. This in turn leads to an inexperienced crew which can spell disaster if faced with an emergency situation. These pilots have 50 to 100 plus lives in their hands and they need to be experienced and well trained.

We need to help reform airline labor so that pilots can do their job without overbearing financial worries. The job set forth to pilots is worth way more than what they are currently paid, and I think we will start to see this take a toll on the quality of people obtaining pilots licenses. Captain Sullenberger said it best when he stated that the only reason we have such competent people now is because being a pilot recently meant outstanding pay, job security, and positive public recognition. All of these perks have left the airline pilot industry, and current pilots are just trying to survive let alone save money for personal needs such as long vacations.

The reform absolutely needs to take place within the next year. And the following should be included: higher pay across the board, better job security, regulating the management that airlines have so pilots do not become ATM machines for revolving door CEOs and board members, and also we need to set a government enforced hiring standard for pilots that will reflect the amount of experience necessary to do such a high risk job.

Unless we fix these things, we will see many negative effects on the flying public and their safety. Also, less qualified individuals will be at the hands of a yoke with hundreds of lives dependent on their skill. We need to make the piloting profession viable for people economically again. I think the mild shortage before the recession is a warning sign of things to come. How low will the hiring standards go when the next hiring wave the pilot industry experiences after this recession goes away and the airlines are scrambling for enough pilots to fill the seats dealing with the fact that a lot less pilots have graduated due to the poor working standards to look forward to?

Thank you for taking the time to read my letter and I hope you will help the cause in any way that you can.
 
Kestrel452 said:
Any updates, Firebird?
Click to expand...


Yeah, just had my head down on others things for a while.

I suddenly seem to have to much to do in life these days. Odd how it couldn't have happened back when I spent entire months on RSV drooling on myself.

But yeah- Congress is in action, the wheels are in motion, and things are happening on a large scale at a dizzy pace.

The most interesting, in my humble opinion, is this:

Congress to Introduce Legislation on Regional Airlines; Eagle Pilots to Spearhead Email Campaign; Increased ALPA-PAC Participation

In the wake of the Colgan 3407 accident, regional airline safety has been the focus of congressional hearings and media attention. While the accident was tragic, we must not miss this unique opportunity to bring issues facing regional airline pilots before our representatives in Washington D.C. Many Eagle pilots have been asking how they can contribute to this effort.

In the past, we have successfully used email campaigns to deliver our message to Eagle management. Soon, we will be asking Eagle pilots to step up to the plate and deliver our message to the United States Senate and House of Representatives through letters and congressional visits.




It would appear certain entities have taken direction from what we've started here on JC. The effort now, as it were, is to make sure that the concept is focused, and has a direct effect that we actually want. The possibility of simply making lots of noise nothing.. .or worse yet... accomplishing something that is actually harmful to our goals.. well.. there's a good initiative for caution here, as well.


People have their eyes where we want them. Major players in the industry on all sides are involved. At this point, all we can do is write letters, make suggestions, make sure the right people are properly advised and truthfully informed, and then wait.



I might note that I wear many hats, and can only speak as a private citizen and an airline pilot.

There will be much more coming from other places in the days ahead.
 
very few things that congress does is done well. i'm a bit more than skeptical that they will address pilot pay in a positive manner.

if people quit taking jobs that pay less than making coffee at starbucks, they'll pay more. as long as you have someone with a few hundred hours willing to fly an rj for poverty levels they will hire them.
 
gne in prog said:
very few things that congress does is done well. i'm a bit more than skeptical that they will address pilot pay in a positive manner.

if people quit taking jobs that pay less than making coffee at starbucks, they'll pay more. as long as you have someone with a few hundred hours willing to fly an rj for poverty levels they will hire them.
Click to expand...

Well, one good piece of news is that the number of graduating pilots is dwindling. FBO are scrambling for students and the military pilots that airlines once fed off of aren't there anymore. Flying isn't a new thing, and it's not interesting to lots of people anymore. I get the "I think that'd be a pretty boring job" spiel all the time. Maybe once the shortage hits, pay will go back up to respectable levels. We would have been much closer if it wasn't for this damn recession. We went from scraping the bottom of the pot for pilots to downsizing the pot.
 
Kestrel452 said:
Well, one good piece of news is that the number of graduating pilots is dwindling. FBO are scrambling for students and the military pilots that airlines once fed off of aren't there anymore. Flying isn't a new thing, and it's not interesting to lots of people anymore. I get the "I think that'd be a pretty boring job" spiel all the time. Maybe once the shortage hits, pay will go back up to respectable levels. We would have been much closer if it wasn't for this damn recession. We went from scraping the bottom of the pot for pilots to downsizing the pot.
Click to expand...


That's what we said last time, and last time they just lowered hiring requirements to the barest possible minimums.

This time around, we need to stop that before it starts.
 
Re: Latest Site Update

Firebird2XC said:
Website just updated.

www.remember3407project.org


See the form letter, and several new News links.

This one's my favorite:

"What Captain Sullenberger was too polite to say."

Linkage.

http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.c...say-but-was-too-polite-to-do-so-a-guest-post/
Click to expand...

I was a little surprised to see some of the general publics' responses to that article. One guy even said something to the effect of "piloting a plane is over rated" suggesting that anyone can jump into the seat and do it. LOL I once had a student with this same cocky attitude so on his second flight I decided to give him a wakeup call with a spin. :insane: I wish I had a picture of the look on his face when I asked him to recover. Wait, he sort of looked like this: :crazy: And this: :dunno: AND THIS: :eek: And one more: :confused: But its easy! Anyone can do it!
 
Re: Latest Site Update

LX40 said:
I was a little surprised to see some of the general publics' responses to that article. One guy even said something to the effect of "piloting a plane is over rated" suggesting that anyone can jump into the seat and do it. LOL I once had a student with this same cocky attitude so on his second flight I decided to give him a wakeup call with a spin. :insane: I wish I had a picture of the look on his face when I asked him to recover. Wait, he sort of looked like this: :crazy: And this: :dunno: AND THIS: :eek: And one more: :confused: But its easy! Anyone can do it!
Click to expand...

I hate people who have this mentality.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top