[general comment]
Exercise caution with potential "mission creep" issues in regards to this whole campaign.
[/general comment]
"Remember 3407" Airline Labor Reform Act
- Thread starter Firebird2XC
- Start date
[general comment]
Exercise caution with potential "mission creep" issues in regards to this whole campaign.
[/general comment]
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Agreed. We've got a fairly simple list of key issues. I really think we need to stick to that.
Agree. Better to have a few key issues organized and presented in a professional way, than to have a myriad of semi-important issues (as well as key ones) organized in a half-assed way. Keeping to the key issues makes "span of control" easier, IMHO.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Well said. I've left the door open to taking on other issues, but primary mission completion is paramount. Other things will be dealt with by basis of urgency and when assets allow.
Kestrel452
Well-Known Member
But if the consumer isn't paying for the pilot then who will? My point is that we need a FIXED amount per ticket going towards the pilots' pay so that pilots don't need to worry about their pay being cut.
It's easy to say that we could just suggest to congress for them to try and get the airlines to pay pilots more. But in reality, the airlines just dont have the money to do it. In the long run, I think slashing pilot pay from the airlines while adding on around $15 per ticket to go DIRECTLY into pilots' pay will solve the issue of both furlough and the risk of airlines/plane manufacturers trying to take pilots out of the equation simply to make things cheaper. Both the pilots and the airlines as a whole would come out WAY ahead if this was done IMHO.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
.. and yet, endless executive perks, free country club memberships, cars, stock options, bonuses, etc... roll out like there's no tomorrow.
"We don't have the money!" is the battlecry of management.
It's a nonargument here.
Here's the mission creep I'm talking about. While I know you're well intentioned, remember that the objective here is to present items of importance for potential legislation. You're essentially asking here for congress to step in and legislate the business practices of the airline, down to the nitty-gritty of the paycheck for crews and how its allotted. Congress has no business being "in the cockpit"; and if you open that Pandora's Box, you may never get it closed again.
Stick to the safety issues.....don't creep into the business issues. Thats a separate battle...hell, a separate AO....in this war.
Kestrel452
Well-Known Member
You are exactly right about that, but every company overdoes pay/benefits for their executives. There isn't anything congress can do about that, and the airline execs for sure arent just about to give those things up. Besides, it might actually be a good thing because it will give management an incentive to stay with the company keeping the same guy in the chair rather than having people come in and out like a brothel.
Kestrel452
Well-Known Member
While you make a valid point, how are we going to get anything done about pay if we dont give congress a few ideas to work with? The whole presentation would last a whole 2 minutes if all we said to them was our few key points. As with any presentation, you need to give some concrete examples on HOW to go about doing them. Pilot pay DOES have an affect on pilot performance, and they need to know that.
I'm well aware of giving the "how" with the "what". But you're drifting away from the key issues that directly affect safety. You're essentially asking Congress to make business decisions for the airlines....something they have zero business doing. They're likely going to be interested in issues that mirror, are parallel to, or further expand on the primary and secondary causal factors for the 3407 accident. Unfortunately, this issue isn't one of them...its more a tertiary factor who's existance only somewhat exacerbated other, more important issues in the accident.
Don't sidetrack yourselves.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Um, sure they could. If they can establish minimums for pilots, they could regulate publicly owned businesses. Any law, assuming it were to pass and not be found un-Constitutional, is theoretically possible.
We don't want to cap the end result of a business, however. If a business is successful, there is no reason why those at the helm should not be well compensated.
I'm sure there are plenty of Captains out there preventing calamity that feel the burden of THAT yoke all too well. Shall we limit their pay?
I think not.
We are going to lobby for an appropriate floor for a 121 pilot to ensure that undue stress or economic strife does not distract from one's duties in the cockpit.
Beyond that, we're going to leave business to the business folks.
As far as this point is concerned, that's the end of it.
pullup
Homewrecker
Serious question: How old are you?
Kestrel452
Well-Known Member
Well look at it this way. If pilot pay doesn't come back up, it will directly affect safety because lower caliber individuals will be more amok in cockpits. If pilot pay was back where it was in the regulation era, people with good brain power will be attracted to the job since it pays what they are worth.
Kestrel452
Well-Known Member
20
pullup
Homewrecker
I don't agree that pay directly correlates with the caliber of the pilot. Unfortunately there really aren't too many jobs that pay very well that are entry level for aviation.
While that very well may have truth to it; that's another battle for another day....part and parcel from this battle and it's mission objectives. Remember what I said Congress will be interested in....
Kestrel452
Well-Known Member
Agreed, but when the time comes when congress asks for ideas on how to get pilot pay back up I think it is worthy idea to mention ALONG the minimum wage idea.
I am beginning to see your point Mike. Whining about pay right away could backfire as you said, so i dont think we should push it too much until that part of the agenda comes into play. For now, I think rest issues and training standards should be the main focus.
My point is, they don't care about pilot pay, and you'll be likely wasting your time trying to push it, thus overshadowing the more important key issues there are. Again, if it's not parallel to, or otherwise backup the primary and secondary causal factors of the accident (ie- something the public would be concerned with directly), then they're not going to want to hear it.
Pilot pay, in this accident, is at best a tertiary factor, if even.
LX40
Old School
The business issues with the airlines have become safety issues in the cockpit.
Poor pay goes hand-in-hand with safety issues in regard to the "human pilot". Absolutely. I said this in another post but when one has to worry about their ability to pay bills, raise a family or simply afford something healthy to eat it can play a huge part in your ability to focus on the flight. When one becomes emotional and stressed about those issues, they become mentally fatigued and the ability to perform is hampered. Would you want a poorly paid surgeon, stressed, emotional and unable to focus 100%, to open your belly? I wouldn't. Just as I wouldn't want a stressed and emotional, hence fatigued, pilot flying the airplane Im sitting in.
If you're well compensated you can stay focused on your job because you feel secure in your ability to survive (pay the bills, raise your family, eat a decent meal and live comfortably). I certainly wouldn't be able to perform at my 100% if I had to consistenly worry about meeting basic needs such as feeding myself or paying next months rent.
In addition, moral is at rock bottom. If the business/management of the airline is poorly condcuted it can have a huge impact on the employees, as we all have seen. In consequence, the employees will not be happy and the working environment can become quite negative. Again, a safety concern because it can hamper one's ability to stay focused. We all know the IMSAFE checklist (S, F and E in this case) and adhere to it carefully. It's there for safety and last time I checked, the FAA considered Stress, Emotion and Fatigue as a factor in the safety of flight.
I think enough is enough already. It's time to step up to the Gov't to do something about this. No pilot should have to work under such horrible conditions. During the days of regulation, things appeared pretty peachy to me. Pay was good, quality of life was dandy and the FA's were hot in those uniforms.
(Lord have mercy, they were hot) The gov't was involved then. Why shouldn't they be involved now if it has the potential to make things better? Maybe Im wrong about all of this but it's just my .02 euros.
The business issues with the airlines have become safety issues in the cockpit.
Poor pay goes hand-in-hand with safety issues in regard to the "human pilot". Absolutely. I said this in another post but when one has to worry about their ability to pay bills, raise a family or simply afford something healthy to eat it can play a huge part in your ability to focus on the flight. When one becomes emotional and stressed about those issues, they become mentally fatigued and the ability to perform is hampered. Would you want a poorly paid surgeon, stressed, emotional and unable to focus 100%, to open your belly? I wouldn't. Just as I wouldn't want a stressed and emotional, hence fatigued, pilot flying the airplane Im sitting in.
If you're well compensated you can stay focused on your job because you feel secure in your ability to survive (pay the bills, raise your family, eat a decent meal and live comfortably). I certainly wouldn't be able to perform at my 100% if I had to consistenly worry about meeting basic needs such as feeding myself or paying next months rent.
In addition, moral is at rock bottom. If the business/management of the airline is poorly condcuted it can have a huge impact on the employees, as we all have seen. In consequence, the employees will not be happy and the working environment can become quite negative. Again, a safety concern because it can hamper one's ability to stay focused. We all know the IMSAFE checklist (S, F and E in this case) and adhere to it carefully. It's there for safety and last time I checked, the FAA considered Stress, Emotion and Fatigue as a factor in the safety of flight.
I think enough is enough already. It's time to step up to the Gov't to do something about this. No pilot should have to work under such horrible conditions. During the days of regulation, things appeared pretty peachy to me. Pay was good, quality of life was dandy and the FA's were hot in those uniforms.
Maybe Im wrong about all of this but it's just my .02 euros.
I agree with you that pilot pay is piss poor; but pay wasn't what put 3407 into the dirt. and because of that, Congress isn't going to want to hear about something that didn't directly affect the accident; especially when no one is forced to work those jobs. It sucks, I know, but that's just how I believe Congress will look at it: "yes, their pay is low.....but aren't they trained to recover correctly from that thing called a stall?" (idiot congressman speaking).
See where I'm coming from? Fight the more direct battles first.....the near rocks are the important ones right now, the far rocks can always come later