"Remember 3407" Airline Labor Reform Act

Not if the end result makes things even worse then they are now..



Here are some thoughts...

RightSeatGirl:
Thank you so much for your input! I know, on my part, I greatly appreciate views that differ from my own because sometimes those views not only shed light on avenues not explored, but suggest additional paths to follow.

RightSeatGirl said:
I agree with you that taking action is certainly needed...but what I'm pessimistic over is the legislation angle...not the taking action part.
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I, too, at the outset was pessimistic about going to ANY route, but the more I thought about it, the more it dawned on me to not only make suggestions, but to get involved.

I have an extensive background in the legal community (13 years), and several years of legislative experience in both Tennessee and for one bright shining summer in Washington, D.C. where I jumped in with both feet and became a part of the machine.

So, I said that to say: I know what we are up against, however, let me share with you why I think the legislative route is the best route:

You stated:
RightSeatGirl said:
One...what your effort needs to do as step one is identify and acknowledge the group of individuals that have the most influence on QOL at the regionals...And it's not Congress...Nor is it the management of regional carriers...

The group who you first need to convince are the senior pilots at the legacy carriers. Those guys control far more with our industry then most realize or want to admit to. If you get them on board...you'll have the biggest challenge overcome. You have to convince them that improvements at the regionals are good for them..so good that they need to come on board with the effort...short of that...this will die a quick death...I state this as opinion...not fact.
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1. While that may be an avenue we most definitely explore along the way I(we'll be soliciting ALL the support we can get), we're not "in this" to just improve live at the regional level;

2. We don't feel that our safety, our rest, and the safety of our passengers, should be open to negotiation by management, by our unions and by our pilot leadership boards. Why? Because that's what we have now and what we have now - I think you will agree - doesn't work;

3. Legislation - moreover a re-writing of the FARs - will take that negotiation process out of the hands of those whose sole responsibility it is to be paid for on-time departures, get the most (flight hours) out the least (numbers of pilots); etc.;

We most definitely - as you suggest - will be speaking with our brothers and sisters at the legacy level. Several of those very people are represented on this board and are paying attention right now....whether or not they agree at the moment.

We will not, however, be limiting our "battle" so-to-speak to the leaders at our regional carriers.

We're going to the source: The Federal Aviaition Regulations are so vaguely and poorly written so as to be liberally interpretted - as they are now - to the detriment of their crews (us).

Not to be cliche, but that just can't continue to fly.

We'd love to have a free-thinker like yourself as a counterbalance - a "devils advocate" - to keep bringing up issues that perhaps we are overlooking.

You on board? We'd love to have your assistance.

Thanks again and please keep the input coming!
 
Here is what concerns me more specific then my opener in this discussion:

Your aim is to improve safety via amending the FAR's....Okay...There is certainly room for improvement there...But how can you do this without reducing the amount of pay credit hours we are currently able to achieve?

The FAA will look at this as a black and white issue....We say: Our companies make us work too much..we are fatigued and dangerous...The FAA will respond by saying..okay..instead of 1000 in a year, now it's 800 in a year, 80 in 30, 20 in 7 and 10 in 24. So instead of going to work for 12 to 14 hours, getting paid for 5 to 8, we'll go to work for 8 to 10 hours and get paid for 2 to 4.

Then comes the other angle..create a law that requires a pay rate for all time on duty. No more being at work for 12 to 14 and getting paid for less then half right?

What do you think will happen next...The airlines will start paying us less for every hour we are on duty..impose flat rate salaries or they will merely reduce our work days to the point where we all are part time in comparison to how it is now...

My overall point is that these bastards that run the airlines will find a way to perpetuate the status quo regardless of any new law....This is the challenge...And one that I have gone over and over again in my head and had endless discussions with pilots much more senior to me...This is why I believe legislation won't work.

As to the legacy guys....getting enough of them on board to help this issue? Good luck..the level of empathy and sympathy for anyone, especially regional pilots is nil. Just about every legacy carrier pilot group has major issues of their own they are working through right now..be it furloughs, mergers or contract negotiations they won't care in enough numbers to help this issue.

We must remember that when most of them were regional pilots, they could not even get an interview with less than 3000 tt, they in many cases had to pay for training and type ratings and made what we make today look like a fortune...Not many of them are going to care about this..not many at all...

I'm all for supporting legislation that addresses the screw us in the end factor, I said that already....but I have yet to hear any proposals from anyone that does not have a significant risk of backfire. I'll put my thinking cap on and try to think up an angle that has yet to be discussed....but I'll say I'm not hopeful...

These guys, these airlines board rooms, these tools are just too damn sneaky and greedy....I'm not saying it's an impossible task...but it will be immensely challenging.
 
RightSeatGirl-

Here's something from our 'live conference' thread the other day.

GOALS<o></o>​
<o></o>
1. Requiring rest requirments to be amended to show "behind the door" or longer required rest per 24 hour period......<o></o> (Rather than 8 hours off duty)
<o></o>
2. Changing the grievance policies to make sure no pilot is punished for fatigue.....<o></o>
and define "Fatigue" as a federally protected right.<o></o>
<o></o>
3. A minimum wage for entry level Part 121 FO's (19 seat turboprop at 70 hours guarantee) of $45K.

4. Raising the miminums for Part 121 hiring to ATP minimums (not necessary to hold an ATP cert). (with grandfather clause for those currently 121 employed)
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5.<!--[endif]-->Legislation to outlaw the Pay for Job (paying to get into the right seat) programs...such as Gulfstream, et al ....<o>></o>
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6.<!--[endif]-->Require clearer identification of Regional Affiliate operations and also
<o></o>
<!--[if !supportLists]-->7.<!--[endif]-->If new restructured, reassigned or cancelled flying is planned, labor must have 90 days to review before implementation. If dispute as per contract Scope arises, the change is frozen until dispute is settled in court. Noncompliance penalty of $10,000/day for the companies involved.<o>></o>
<o></o>
<!--[if !supportLists]-->8.<!--[endif]--> Changing the Railway Labor Agreement so the National Mediation Board can't block a strike. Proper bargaining leverage has been denied to pilots for years. <o></o>
<o></o>
<!--[if !supportLists]-->9.<!--[endif]--> Whipsaw prevention and Contract Violation protection is also a concern. Willcontract violations, like Scope violation (which is a contract issue) need to have enforceable penalties to discourage random overruns.<o></o> <!--[if !supportLists]-->

10.<!--[endif]--> Possibilities of language such as "a carrier with pilots on furlough may not transfer flying to another carrier by contract using airplanes with more or less than 30 seats of the airplanes flown by the original carrier."


These are goals we have, true, but as time goes on we may find them more or less practical in their current form as compared to now. That will allow for amendability.

Business types will always look for ways to circumvent laws and abuse loopholes. We're suggesting we just close some known loopholes now. If new ones crop up in the future, then we'll take a look at that when it arises. The legality of business can often seem very much like a 'whack-a-mole' game event. We understand this.

To quote Heinlein, "Of course the game is rigged! But you can't win if you don't play...."
 
pullup said:
Where?
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The Airmail Act of 1935 established a guaranteed minimum wage for airline pilots.

The drive to get that language in the Act was Decision 83, which was pushed by ALPA founded Dave Behncke.

Decision 83 set a monthly maximum flight time of 85 hours, established the concept of basic hourly pay, and added a small mileage increment.

Gee.. my legal max of 100 hours doesn't seem so cushy now.

Behncke wasn't crazy about the hourly wage concept, regardless.
He went along with it because of the mileage increment- it tied aircraft speed to profits, and tied pilots to those profits.

Most airlines have a basic minimum wage now, but it has fallen so far behind the times that the value of our services vs. the degree of our compensation has become badly skewed.

Draw a decisive line in the sand and set the bar more towards where it should be, add on a 3 percent annual cost of living adjustment, and now you've got something.
 
The only way to "fix" the problem is to copy what the AMA did for Surgeons. Control supply. In doing so they also controlled aptitude of the applicant. They controlled the training, certification, accreditation, etc, etc. The "aptitude" and "attitude" of a potential new pilot is not given any thought when compared to the entry process into the medical field. Screening for those 2 things at the entry point to the commercial pilot career is where we fail. After that there is no recovery.

We "Increase" supply by the very nature of the career ladder. We take anyone who shows up at the FBO with cash (or loan). We allow the minimal government (FAA) standards to be all that's required. "Here is the test book with all the answers, go sit in the corner then come back in a couple days and pass the test without any understanding of the subject matter." We do not police ourselves. When someone is not cutting it (5 busted checks) we give another do-over.

Often a person who is NOT highly capable and has NO other options will stay in the career as long as no one tells them they can't or they crash whichever comes first. Sometimes a person who has other options and IS highly capable will leave once they realize the rewards are few and far away. They take experience they have gained with them. The revolving door turns and fresh meat with eyes wide shut begins their career with a "Learn to fly Demo ride".

The airlines have demonstrated they will adjust their minimums all the way down to the FAA minimums for the job. The FAA mins have never been adequate for part 121 but it was never really challenged as the airlines historically hired at levels far above the FAA minimums. If needed they already have a hip pocket MPL plan waiting for use that will lower the experience required even more.

I do not fault the crew of 3407. It's not the job of the individual pilot to look in the mirror and say "I'm not ready, I don't have enough experience yet, or I'm not really cut out for this" It's the job of those overseeing the hiring, training, the certification, and checking. In whatever dream you set out on in life you press on with whatever you got until you hit a brick wall you cannot get over or around.

In the Air Force when someone was unable to catch on or keep up they met a formal board to review their performance. I was present at a few of these. It surprised me when a formal board found a student unable to complete pilot training within the constraints of the allotted hours, the student often felt relief! It was over. He/she did his/her best and it was time to move on. They didn't give up or quit but now they could hold their head up and change career paths. No equivalent scenario in many civilian pilot training paths. Keep the money flowing and the do-overs continue. (not intended to be a Civ vs Mil jab)

I knew this was going to happen. I just didn't know the flight number, or date. I also know there will be more.

I wrote about it back in 2007, here:

http://www.forums.jetcareers.com/general-topics/53768-expectations-how-save-5-airline-ticket.html

R.I.P. all those who were aboard 3407.
 
Well written prose..all of it. But one thing you didn't address and one thing that needs to be talked about a little for this effort is one disgusting similarity between the airlines and auto manufacturers.

When a car maker discovers a severe design flaw in one of its models, perhaps one significant enough to cause a fatal accident, the maker puts an army of analysts on the issue to determine if the cost of a recall would outweigh the statistical likelihood of that defect causing said fatalities and associated lawsuits. In simpler terms, which possibility is more probable therefore which possibility would be cheaper to deal with.

The airlines are doing this now with pilots. They have weighed the risk and have determined that significant aircraft fatal accidents such as the Colgan crash or the Air France that just went down happen so little, it is cheaper for them to pay less experienced pilots then deal with the financial aftermath of a crash linked to that inexperience over a given period, probably ten years.

There is zero motivation for air carriers to pay pilots commensurate to our training costs and level of skill and responsibility. The airlines will never care that someone failed five checkrides as long as that person passes theirs in their training program.

The cold-blooded reality of all this is it is about money...period. Safety will always fall by the wayside when money is involved...
 
RightSeatGirl said:
Well written prose..all of it. But one thing you didn't address and one thing that needs to be talked about a little for this effort is one disgusting similarity between the airlines and auto manufacturers.

When a car maker discovers a severe design flaw in one of its models, perhaps one significant enough to cause a fatal accident, the maker puts an army of analysts on the issue to determine if the cost of a recall would outweigh the statistical likelihood of that defect causing said fatalities and associated lawsuits. In simpler terms, which possibility is more probable therefore which possibility would be cheaper to deal with.

The airlines are doing this now with pilots. They have weighed the risk and have determined that significant aircraft fatal accidents such as the Colgan crash or the Air France that just went down happen so little, it is cheaper for them to pay less experienced pilots then deal with the financial aftermath of a crash linked to that inexperience over a given period, probably ten years.

There is zero motivation for air carriers to pay pilots commensurate to our training costs and level of skill and responsibility. The airlines will never care that someone failed five checkrides as long as that person passes theirs in their training program.

The cold-blooded reality of all this is it is about money...period. Safety will always fall by the wayside when money is involved...
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Life is a risk, and money is the driving force of everything... in our society at least, sadly. It is an archaic way to live... Instead of service to others and take care of each other, it's step on each other to try to get YOURSELF to the top. Forget about your brother and sister fellow humans... Nobody wants to help their neighbors out anymore.

But about the risk thing - nothing can and will ever be perfect. If a few plane crashes every 5 years will force you to not fly and become outraged at the crew specifically (and not management, or the pay rate, or their schedules, and our system in general), then go live in a bubble, and never come out of it ever again. Don't even walk your dog, since your chances of getting hit by lightning are much, MUCH better than that of dying in a plane crash.

Odds of being struck by lightning: 576,000 to 1

Odds of being killed by lightning: 2,320,000 to 1

Odds of being murdered: 18,000 to 1

Odds of getting away with murder: 2 to 1

Odds of being the victim of serious crime in your lifetime: 20 to 1

Odds of dating a supermodel: 88,000 to 1

Chance of dying from a car accident: 1 in 18,585

The odds of being killed on a single trip in an airliner accident is 52.6 million to 1.
 
seaav8tor said:
The only way to "fix" the problem is to copy what the AMA did for Surgeons. Control supply. In doing so they also controlled aptitude of the applicant. They controlled the training, certification, accreditation, etc, etc. The "aptitude" and "attitude" of a potential new pilot is not given any thought when compared to the entry process into the medical field. Screening for those 2 things at the entry point to the commercial pilot career is where we fail. After that there is no recovery.
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Note this entry in our list of goals:

4. Raising the miminums for Part 121 hiring to ATP minimums (not necessary to hold an ATP cert). (with grandfather clause for those currently 121 employed)
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Making it cost-prohibitive to "buy your way in" and control supply is the idea, actually.

I learned to fly at a small military club that was managed by a DPE who's probably seen just about everything, considering how long he's been at it.

He told me a story about somebody who'd been timebuilding for their next rating. They'd been flying back and forth between the same two airports, just barely fifty miles apart- the entire time.

Raising the minimums to get into a 121 cockpit will guarantee that extensive, varied experience is required to get on board. It will also shake loose the 'entitled' types whose parents just wrote a check and they never assumed they'd have to work to rise to the airline ranks. It seems that those types (based on what captains and check airmen I fly with tell me) are usually the worst culprits of the bunch.


 
RightSeatGirl said:
There is zero motivation for air carriers to pay pilots commensurate to our training costs and level of skill and responsibility. The airlines will never care that someone failed five checkrides as long as that person passes theirs in their training program.

The cold-blooded reality of all this is it is about money...period. Safety will always fall by the wayside when money is involved...
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Agreed, wholeheartedly. That's why we're going to take that choice away from the airlines.
 
I have another suggestion. Include a section containing news stories and/or research studies backing up your claims. I think just a 'breaking news' section is insufficient to back up your points to someone unfamiliar with airlines' inner workings. I will try and find as many news bulletins and studies as i can to help out with that. I feel that this is a very important thing to have on there.
 
Kestrel452 said:
I have another suggestion. Include a section containing news stories and/or research studies backing up your claims. I think just a 'breaking news' section is insufficient to back up your points to someone unfamiliar with airlines' inner workings. I will try and find as many news bulletins and studies as i can to help out with that. I feel that this is a very important thing to have on there.
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Coming soon. Last night was my first hitch at raw web page design.

I have a whole list of things that will be added to 'flesh out' the site in the days to come.
 
Firebird2XC said:
Coming soon. Last night was my first hitch at raw web page design.

I have a whole list of things that will be added to 'flesh out' the site in the days to come.
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Great start.....I look forward to the refinement of the site. I noticed minor typos and things like that. But overall, the site is off to a nice start.

Kudos!
 
Cruise said:
Great start.....I look forward to the refinement of the site. I noticed minor typos and things like that. But overall, the site is off to a nice start.

Kudos!
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Thanks. Yeah, I'm sure there are a few hiccups here and there- I sat down and wrote that in about 2 hours straight, then refined my non-existent knowledge of html procedure, etc, to get it up and running.

Were it not for Spiramirabilis and Kristie, however, it wouldn't be there at all.
 
I just realized something... I know you guys are trying to get the message out, but won't it be too late if you don't go public with this by the time congress has their session on this issue?
 
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