RAH to operate E-190s for Midwest

[Gonzo]

Does anyone know the number of 190's RAH is getting?

 

[kellwolf]

I don't think its too far fetched to have a Union authorized job action bro! Here comes 190 aircraft. We have no payscale for this bird (100 seats). Not mention, this is not a larger small jet. Its a mainline aircraft. We have every reason to go forward with a job action if these airplanes are not accompanied by huge changes in pay and work rules.

And how do you do this....legally? There's probably provisions in the contract for adding new fleet types that don't have a pay scale. If not, then that's a missed opportunity during the last round of negotiations. If that's in place, then the company and the union have to abide by that. With us and the -900, there was a framework in place. Naturally, it strongly favored management. If there's no provision in the contract, you really don't have a leg to stand on. You'll wind up in arbitration for months with the plane already being flown for whatever rate the company determines (probably the 99 seat rate) until the arbitrator's decision comes back.

Now, if you've got a clause in the contract that says the company can't put a new fleet type into service without first negotiating a pay rate with the union, THEN you've got a fight. You've also got a HUGE amount of leverage on the pay rate since the company can't fly the airplane (and get the revenue from it) without first getting through the union. Downside is, if it drags on too long, the company can say "F it" and pull 1 seat out of every plane.

 

[Firebird2XC]

I think the real problem is that we have a union at RAH that doesn't really represent their people that well.

ALPA, anyone?

 

[granlistillo]

Re: 100 seat RJs finally here

RJ= Replacement Jet.

It's finally, truly appropriate.

20 years from now will there even be large jets anymore?... or just like 1000's of "little" RJ's that do cross country "regional" flights?

The EMB-190 is, without any discussion, a competitor against the 737.

JetBlue fly's 190's.

US Airways fly's 190's.

Now Republic fly's 190's.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the rest of your career. More and more folks are going to end up being unable to move on, so I hope ya'll have got good seats.

I think scope agreements that were struck a few years back will eventually kill off all mainline domestic flying except for the megatropolis to megatropolis routes.

The paradigm has changed... the train has left the station, the cats out of the bag, alea jacta est.

I don't really see how lamenting, bellyaching, gnashing of teeth against the overwhelming trend has helped anything at all.

The Management paradigm has changed, so maybe we should change ours. If it is indeed the "future of our career", perhaps the focus of pilot groups and ALPA should be to make life (pay and work rules) at the regionals good. If ALPA realized the true "B" scale was at the regionals, and worked to alleviate that, then we would all be better off.

Heck the word Regional Airline is now an oxymoron.

This seems to be just another chapter in the onslaught of the borg.
Resistance the way we've been playing the game is most likely futile.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Re: 100 seat RJs finally here

I think scope agreements that were struck a few years back will eventually kill off all mainline domestic flying except for the megatropolis to megatropolis routes.

The paradigm has changed... the train has left the station, the cats out of the bag, alea jacta est.

I don't really see how lamenting, bellyaching, gnashing of teeth against the overwhelming trend has helped anything at all.

The Management paradigm has changed, so maybe we should change ours. If it is indeed the "future of our career", perhaps the focus of pilot groups and ALPA should be to make life (pay and work rules) at the regionals good. If ALPA realized the true "B" scale was at the regionals, and worked to alleviate that, then we would all be better off.

Heck the word Regional Airline is now an oxymoron.

This seems to be just another chapter in the onslaught of the borg.
Resistance the way we've been playing the game is most likely futile.

:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:

(See sig line below.)

Now ya'll are gettin' it!

 

[rd757]

Oh, they've been looking to cash out for a while. I think it's Aeromexico that's already been striking deals for Midwest's 717s.

The 717's have gone/are going to MexicanaClick, which is a LCC owned by Mexicana, currently operating Fokker 100's and the 717's are set to replace those.

RD

 

[SoCalAprch]

Re: 100 seat RJs finally here

I think scope agreements that were struck a few years back will eventually kill off all mainline domestic flying except for the megatropolis to megatropolis routes.

The paradigm has changed... the train has left the station, the cats out of the bag, alea jacta est.

I don't really see how lamenting, bellyaching, gnashing of teeth against the overwhelming trend has helped anything at all.

The Management paradigm has changed, so maybe we should change ours. If it is indeed the "future of our career", perhaps the focus of pilot groups and ALPA should be to make life (pay and work rules) at the regionals good. If ALPA realized the true "B" scale was at the regionals, and worked to alleviate that, then we would all be better off.

Heck the word Regional Airline is now an oxymoron.

This seems to be just another chapter in the onslaught of the borg.
Resistance the way we've been playing the game is most likely futile.

Agreed 100%

Everyone can kick and scream and say that if you were an RAH pilot you would demand 737 rates but lets face it, it doesn't happen overnight and just because you "demand" it doesn't mean squat if your contract is useless. Ill be the first to admit that our contract has more holes in it than a pasta strainer but what can we do about it right now? We have to knock this new contract out. I don't think anyone at RAH is denying that or saying that they accept the rates for what they are. Also remember that when this contract was signed we had no clue that we would possibly be flying mainline sized aircraft.

Kellwolf you are correct in the fact that if they want to keep 100 seats in them they will have to negotiate 100 seat rates with us. However I expect that they take the seat out when the rate negotiations start.

As for a legal job action, Airdale, doesn't there have to be a violation of a contract to have a job action? Last time I checked our contract hasn't been violated. Yes it sucks but last I checked there isn't anything in there saying that just because we realize we signed in crap rates that we can refuse the flying.

I think 99% of the pilot group shares the opinion that we need changes and that the 190 has crossed a line. From what I have heard everyone is on board with voting NO unless we get JBLU rates or better on that type on both seats.

 

[WalterSobchak]

Re: 100 seat RJs finally here

So what can be done to stop this? I fly 135 freight in a metro so I'm not sure there is much i can do but I'm curious. This is the profession i love and plan on being in for the next 40 years. What can we as a community do to stop this downfall of our careers?

You are already part of the solution. If more people would have some self respect by aquiring time and experience and not running off to the first regional that offers you a job and accepting those wages they would have to go up. Make management need pilots and wages would follow.

The sad truth is a lot of people run off and get hired at a regional because they have a body temperature above 90. They also love to get hired because of how "sweet" the plane is. Look at RAH. The pay rates and contract(QOL) they are completely sub par and you dont get paid during training. I believe they don't even pay for your hotel(atleast they didn't years ago). That is why I flew freight for a long time because I wasn't going to be part of the problem and I had to much self respect. Different strokes for different folks. Mike you are doing it right IMO! F-MGMNT!!!

 

[SoCalAprch]

Re: 100 seat RJs finally here

You are already part of the solution. If more people would have some self respect by aquiring time and experience and not running off to the first regional that offers you a job and accepting those wages they would have to go up. Make management need pilots and wages would follow.

The sad truth is a lot of people run off and get hired at a regional because they have a body temperature above 90. They also love to get hired because of how "sweet" the plane is. Look at RAH. The pay rates and contract(QOL) they are completely sub par and you dont get paid during training. I believe they don't even pay for your hotel(atleast they didn't years ago). That is why I flew freight for a long time because I wasn't going to be part of the problem and I had to much self respect. Different strokes for different folks. Mike you are doing it right IMO! F-MGMNT!!!

I agree with you but they do pay for training, albeit only 400 after taxes a week, and they do provide hotels.

 

[Velocipede]

Ok, gang. I've been out of touch for a couple days. So...fair warning. You all know how I feel about RAH/Midwest. I'm currently sitting in a hotel room in YVR and looking out the window at an Air Canada E190 AND sipping rum and coke.

Away we go!

If Republic isn't the poster child for why all the majors should protect their scope as much as possible, I don't know what is!

You have hit the heart of the issue. Scope, SCOPE, SCOPE!

I hate this industry. I called a scab for being at a non-union carrier now I will be a scab because my CEO wishes to destroy the industry. Sorry everyone

As others have already pointed out, RAH pilots aren't scabs. Midwest pilots were not and are not on strike, so the term scab does NOT apply.

Well, it's probably not going to last long anyway. Southwest'll snap up that market in a jiffy.

Since I'm late, your prediction is 100% accurate. SWA is charging into the MKE market.

I really mean this and want people to answer this honestly. I've been neutral lately on RAH and their pilot group etc. But do we not have to place some blame here on that pilot group for accepting these planes?

Yes. And you have to hold RAH pilots responsible for accepting the outsourced flying in the first place. If you recall, that's what I said all along. And there response here (and other sites)? "What are we supposed to do? Not come to work and get fired?"

NO! Act like UNION pilots. Grow some balls and just say NO to flying outsourced work. Flying outsourced work isn't flying struck work. But, its about as close as you can come without actually scabbing. They KILLED a bunch of $153 an hour airline pilot Captain jobs. By doing so, they doomed THEMSELVES to a career of RJ wages.

I dont care. I'm saving all my sick calls and getting FMLA so whenever they try and award me a 190 trip, I'm going to call in sick. Ill stay at home and fly my couch for 3 days.....Try and get cheap labor out me me, they can pound sand.

Exactly! THIS is how you grow some balls. If they can't get you to fly the trips, they can't satisfy the outsource contract. No pilots, no flying. Seems simple to me.

And finally. . .the only one that matters. . .

Wonderful rates there. . .oh yeah. . .especially for taking out a national carrier. You guys do have negotiations coming up right? I sure hope you guys hit the ball somewhere close to what Midwest's rates were.

Cheap labor is what Midwest management wanted, and RAH leadership was more than happy to do it - and bring the aircraft.

Apparently, so were the pilots. Now, though the RAH pilots are whining about low pay. Hey, YOU guys killed the golden goose. And in doing so, became the poster boys for the giant sucking sound that the airline piloting profession has become. Thanks a bunch. :banghead:

There I said it. The RAH pilot group has NO backbone.

No kidding.

Nothing was ever hammered out about 190 pay rates...because I really don't want to see the day where I have to fly in the right seat of a 190 for half or more than half the pay of industry 190 rates and mainline. What a joke man....absolutely ridiculous. And just watch the pilot group do nothing about it. "Oh but we don't have a choice".

Laughable. Take Midwest's flying without remorse then complain that they're not paying you enough to do it. :banghead:

Just affraid many bad things will come from this (rejected jumpseats, name calling, etc.).

I wouldn't worry to much about name-calling. "Stick and stones..." after all. But I think RAH has made some "no jumpseat" lists.

I wonder how long it's going to take before the RAH 190 pilots are labeled scabs? The major pilots will not like this at all. Honestly this is a new low for our industry. The replacement of laid off Midwest pilots by mainline airplanes flown by regional pilots. Wow. How much lower can we go?

You can't get any lower. Unless you actually fly struck work. So, you're not scabs...yet. Somehow, I don't think RAH management would hesitate to contract for struck work. Then what will you do? Say, "We don't have any choice"? Then you WILL be scabs.

I think it's really important to realize that even alter-ego carrier pilots are not true 'scabs'.

We need a different term for that sort of business, but smearing the pilots with it really isn't fair.

Agreed. For now.

RJ= Replacement Jet.

Amen.

The EMB-190 is, without any discussion, a competitor against the 737. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the rest of your career. More and more folks are going to end up being unable to move on, so I hope ya'll have got good seats.

Excellent point, jtrain. By killing good legacy jobs, RAH pilots have condemned THEMSELVES to careers as Regional pilots. I think I'd rather be a lawyer.

We don't have a pay scale for 100 seats. So, that has to be negotiated and with our M.I.A. union, who knows how that is going to happen. I have a hard time saying this, but ALPA sounds better on a daily basis.

So, you don't have any problem with killing good ALPA jobs, but you don't like your pay scale? And you want ALPA to help you raise it? YGBSM!
:banghead:

Welcome to wage slavery, folks.

Yep. So much for that dream of flying a 777 to Mumbai.

You're absolutely right about that statement in bold. Their is NOTHING regional about the E-170 - E -190. Nothing at all, shoot not even the CRJ-900. All we can hope for is that they establish a good pay rate to fly it......

Yeah, maybe you can get a FLOCK of Jungle Jets and put some more legacy pilots out of work.
:banghead:

No, It's not. Midwest is no longer flying ANY of their flights. NONE. ZERO. NULL. On September 1st, the 717's are going away. Done. Gone. RPA is flying all of their flights.

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

It's a cue that Midwest will cease to exist....they've struggled for a while and they cannot afford to fly themselves. That's not RAH's fault...

YGBSM!

The ONLY reason Midwest pilots are on the streets is that Hoeksma demanded unrealistic wage cuts. When they were rejected, he contracted with RAH to fly the planes. And RAH pilots acquiesced. Period. End of story.

Well, I guess it's not too late to make ANOTHER career change. Anyone know any good nursing schools?

You should see my medical bills from the last couple weeks. Medicine. That's where the money is. Obstetric nursing is where its at!

If RAH didn't take the 190s then someone else, maybe SkyWest, would have.

I guess this justification makes you feel better about killing Midwest. "If we hadn't done it Skywest would have. So it OK that I'm bidding MKE flying an took that upgrade."

If every RAH pilot called in sick or refused the 190 then they would be fired and RAH would hire new people to fly the planes. There isn't anything in our contract saying we can refuse to fly a certain type of plane if we are displaced into it.

Bull! If EVERY RAH pilot had refused to fly the Midwest flying, they couldn't have fired all of you. The airline would have been out of business. Newsflash! Airplanes don't move without pilots.

So, don't spew that trash. You guys rubbed your hands together with glee anticipating more flying and more upgrades. You don't fool anyone.

..if you are really that embarrassed to come to work then go back to where you came from.

I guess guys with principles aren't welcome at RAH.

I don't blame it on our pilot group or on anyone except the managment of Mid West. I hate to break it to everyone but if Midwest went to XJT and offered 190s they would have taken em whether the pilot group wanted it or not.

Shudder! Let's not blame the pilot group. They only operate the planes. They got the upgrades. They got the better lines. Don't blame the ENABLERS, blame the victims. Nice.
:banghead::banghead:

And thank God I live in base... :bandit:op:

You forgot, "So I don't have to pay the penalty for killing legacy jobs."

the only thing the XJT MEC, and the XJT pilot group would settle for would be Continental 737 pay rates on the thing.

That's because you have a UNION and a group of pilots with balls. A significant difference.

I have my utmost faith in the ability of the XJT MEC to nail the company to the wall if this were to happen.

There you go.

For every 1 pilot that says they will not fly it there are I would even say conservatively, 10 pilots that cant wait to jump in that thing.

Of course. Pilots are basicly prostitutes. SJS is a harsh mistress.

I don't want to finish my career at a National/Regional/sub contracted carrier. You want to argue that pilots don't have a choice and what will be is what will be. I beg to differ, and that sentiment only proves my theory about the group being lazy. We'd rather make excuses for the company's actions and take no responsibility for the blame....Happy are we to fly such nice large airplanes. Happy are we to lay claim to our career Regional job....but I think its about time we start taking responsibility for our own actions and get a real union.So again, we'll just claim to be innocent pawns of a chess game and pretend like we have no choice.

:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:

Read this SEVERAL times.

Short term gains at long term sacrifices game. Such a shame so many seem to play it, at the rest of our expense.

And at their OWN expense, too.

I hate republic management. I hate midwest management. What a giant effing letdown

The managers couldn't have pulled this off without the help of RAH pilots.

I think the hedge fund company that controls Midwest is looking for an out all together...

Big picture thinking not desired, Seggy. You should know that by now.

Everyone can kick and scream and say that if you were an RAH pilot you would demand 737 rates...Also remember that when this contract was signed we had no clue that we would possibly be flying mainline sized aircraft.

Again, NO remorse for the 400 mainline jobs you killed. Just "where's my 100 seat pay rate." Disgusting.

voting NO unless we get JBLU rates or better on that type on both seats.

YGBSM! $98 an hour to fly a jet that is comparable to the jet Midwest Captains were getting $153 an hour to fly. Are you serious? You really aim high, ace.
:banghead::banghead:

 

[meyers9163]

Velo.... I am very impressed. I think you got the point across with that coke and rum and maybe kept the blood pressure within a proper range ! Nicely done man!

 

[Milesar]

What are the Midwest pilots left todo? It appears that any attempt to better their situation becomes thwarted by RAH's actions, not much leverage left when there is another carrier with lager aircraft willing todo that flying at a cheaper rate.

 

[Baronman]

Excellent point, jtrain. By killing good legacy jobs, RAH pilots have condemned THEMSELVES to careers as Regional pilots. I think I'd rather be a lawyer.

I agree the long term effect will be fewer high paying mainline jobs. That being said there will still be mainline jobs and I think those pilots envolved would still prefer growth and a guaranteed higher income (upgrade) over a vague future job that MAY be around in a few years.

 

[killbilly]

What are the Midwest pilots left todo? It appears that any attempt to better their situation becomes thwarted by RAH's actions, not much leverage left when there is another carrier with lager aircraft willing todo that flying at a cheaper rate.

The Midwest MD-80 pilot that I know (I'm related to him by marriage) took a job in Australia flying a privately-owned MD-80.

 

[Velocipede]

Velo.... I am very impressed. I think you got the point across with that coke and rum and maybe kept the blood pressure within a proper range ! Nicely done man!

Its AMAZING was an artificial depressant can do for your system.

I agree the long term effect will be fewer high paying mainline jobs. That being said there will still be mainline jobs and I think those pilots envolved would still prefer growth and a guaranteed higher income (upgrade) over a vague future job that MAY be around in a few years.

I disagree. EVERY pilot gets into this job with the "career expectation" of flying an international widebody and maxing out his earning potential. Every time a regional replaces a good paying job, its one (or in the case of Midwest, 400) less opportunity to grab the gold ring.

Commercial flying is a pyramid. RAH pilots are guaranteeing that the upper levels of the pyramid just got 400 jobs narrower. It doesn't impact me, it impacts THEM. I sincerely hope they're satisfied with that 20 year $119 Captain pay rate. Because THEY are condemning THEMSELVES to that career.

 

[OldTownPilot]

Velo, Isn't Midwest's scope also partly to blame? I mean all of this is legal there, and wouldn't be at CAL, Delta, Airways, United, and probably several others.

I don't want to say that you are bashing RAH because they are non-ALPA and placing no blame on Midwest, because they are ALPA, but to me it appears that you have very large ALPA blinders on by solely going after the RAH pilots, and defending Midwest to all end.

Maybe using this as the "scope is almighty" example to the rest of the unions, MECs etc, that more will be done to improve things in the long run, than by condemning the RAH folks, who just happen to be caught in the crossfire between Hoksemma and Bedford.

 

[Center_Mid]

Dumb question about scope from a private pilot. Are scope clauses limited to seat count or do they include aircraft range? Seems to me that if a manufacturer ever designs a 70-90 seat aircraft that can fly nonstop on legs of 3,000+ nm with the required fuel reserve, there'll be a whole lot more 737/A320 pilots on the street. As suggested by other posters, transcontinental routes would become "regional" routes.

Could a mainline union demand that all flying on routes longer than say 1,800nm be mainline no matter how many seats?

 

[OldTownPilot]

Scope can be anything. Most airlines have seat limits or MGTOW limits (or both).

CAL dooesn't have any range limits, however all inter-hub flying has to be flown by mainline. They also do not allow domestic revenue sharing which was a point of contention with management, as they wanted to get rid of that so that they could use UAex 70 seaters out of the hubs and get the money from them.

 

[rd757]

Velo, why are you hitting your head to my post? I only posted the truth, it was not opinionated.

RD

 

[SoCalAprch]

I just want to ask Velo where he found one of us happy about this. Everything from anyone I talked to is anger. If you can tell us (albeit with a powerless union) how to set up a legal job action we would be all ears.

Its easy for everyone and even Velo to point the blame and to not add any wisdom to the situation but us new guys want to know...

HOW DO WE LEGALLY STOP THIS????????????

if you can answer that then you should be paid more...