RAH to operate E-190s for Midwest
- Thread starter charlie1017
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surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Troof.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
Cue management of all major airlines queueing up to file BK in order to adjust E-190/737/A320 payrates to the new industry standard payrate (RAH's.)
That is exactly what happened when JetBlue showed up on the scene, why would it not happen again?
That is exactly what happened when JetBlue showed up on the scene, why would it not happen again?
joliet
New Member
*Climbs inside Armored Personnel Carrier, drives it underground to a nuclear fallout shelter 10 stories below the earth, picks up microphone for loud speaker on the surface, sips water, clears throat, sips water again*
SOUTHWEST AIRLINES
Airdale
Well-Known Member
Honestly, the RAH pilot group is in shambles. Our union has fallen apart and pilot group is divided. Some want to stick with the Teamsters, some want to stick it TO the Teamsters. Some want ALPA, some want in-house. Its a mess. Given the situation, this 190 bull does not surprise me one bit. Why wouldn't management take advantage of a divided pilot group with NO backbone. There I said it. The RAH pilot group has NO backbone.
Because if the group had any backbone, they would have dumped the Teamsters long ago, voted in ALPA and actually may have prevented these deals. Quite frankly, I think this whole industry is just a joke. I can remember the 190 rumors flying on the RAH website since last year. Nothing was ever hammered out about 190 pay rates, and just when contract negotiations were getting TO the pay situation, the IBT pulls some donkey goat rope manuever and negotiations practically fall apart.
I'm glad I'm still on medical leave, because I really don't want to see the day where I have to fly in the right seat of a 190 for half or more than half the pay of industry 190 rates and mainline. What a joke man....absolutely ridiculous. And just watch the pilot group do nothing about it. "Oh but we don't have a choice". Bull. The pilot group needs to pull their heads from the arse that is the IBT and get a real Union. Nuff said.
meyers9163
Well-Known Member
Eh.... I've tried to not go there. Really dont blame the lower guys either, but some of the higher ups should step up and try to get something done. But again, I dont know anything about how RAH union runs and or their pilot group. Just was hoping they had the ability to vote this down, and it appears the OLD union screwed them out of any chance of that.
Just affraid many bad things will come from this (rejected jumpseats, name calling, etc.).
turbomax97
What can brown do for you?
Re: 100 seat RJs finally here
It won't happen so long as there are newer and younger pilots willing to pay for their airline gigs, or at the very least willing to work for terrible work rules and pay rates. I hate to say it but yet again, mainline flying being outsourced. :banghead:
It won't happen so long as there are newer and younger pilots willing to pay for their airline gigs, or at the very least willing to work for terrible work rules and pay rates. I hate to say it but yet again, mainline flying being outsourced. :banghead:
In a perfect world workers would not have to legally bind their employers to using its own experienced employees. The reality at the airlines today is that scope is a very real topic and one of great importance. Good scope is also important to a regional pilot.
Why would I want a mainline airline to have good scope?
If you consider that 15-20 years ago the F100, DC9, BaE146, etc. were all mainline aircraft with the pay, benefits, and very importantly the rest and duty rules of a mainline airline pilot contract you quickly see that we are sliding the bar across to larger and larger aircraft to allow for the relaxation of these benefits. As a regional pilot if you have aspirations of a long airline career and one day having a good paying job, with work rules that allow for a family life, and some form of job security then scope is very important.
In 1989 PamAm Express pay for a DHC7 FO was:
20.06, corrected to the CPI via GOV calculation that’s 35.44 first year pay It topped out at 51.10 (with CPI correction) at 10 years.
That aircraft was not a Jet but a turboprop, It was post deregulation, and still much more than now... 20 years later. That job was a prop job at a commuter/regional airline. When you moved on to what is a mainline cockpit you may have sat down in a 90+ seat aircraft with pay 3x what you were making at the "commuter" and you were on a mainline list with a variety of opportunities...
Lets fast forward to today, regional’s are now at the 100 seat market, with constant flushing of experienced pilots via shifting of flying between vendors to keep costs down. Airlines are on a cycle of bidding wars which produces working conditions that no one wants to work under for an entire career, so they move on. MESA experienced a loss ( the pilots quit or left to another airline) of the "majority" of their pilots in one year, that’s an incredible fact that is amazing to me.
If a mainline partner has good scope then to me, a regional pilot, it would mean that the rest and trip rules over the entire course of my career have a better chance of being better than a reduced rest overnight every other day. The reason being that, over the long term more flying is done under the mainline flag. With most pilots flying at mainline, today the regional’s fly more than 50% of all domestic departures.
The downside to this is that I will not be hired into a small narrow body jet aircraft but instead I get hired into a B1900, Saab340, EMB120, or -8... All of which, in a perfect world would be flown by the mainline as well. The pay at these regional airlines would still need to improve above what we have today; 16K-20K is not an appropriate starting salary for any airline pilot.
One Brand, One list, One contract...
I will attach an interesting file that contains an article about when Pan AM created a single list between PanAm express and PanAM mainline, it wasn’t perfect but it was a start... (now I just need to learn how to upload).
Re: 100 seat RJs finally here
I wonder how long it's going to take before the RAH 190 pilots are labeled scabs? The major pilots will not like this at all. Honestly this is a new low for our industry. The replacement of laid off Midwest pilots by mainline airplanes flown by regional pilots. Wow. How much lower can we go?
I wonder how long it's going to take before the RAH 190 pilots are labeled scabs? The major pilots will not like this at all. Honestly this is a new low for our industry. The replacement of laid off Midwest pilots by mainline airplanes flown by regional pilots. Wow. How much lower can we go?
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
Their FO payrate is ...
Their CA payrate is higher objectively (119$ vs $104) but on a per-seat basis much less than Mesa.
However, if you want to look at the percentage of undercutting -- ALPA has analyzed Mesa's contract and I believe I read it is about 20% under what it should be. Hmmmm...
Besides.... at this point it is in a entirely different ballgame. Yeah, our (Mesa's) contract sucks -- our most recent one only barely gets into the equivilant area near years older contracts from other carriers. But thats irrevelant. At this point it's comparing apples to oranges. Republic is now IMHO a major airline (or at least LCC ala JetBlue/frontier/etc), so who cares that you're still better than Mesa? You think pilots at United, Delta, Airways or Midwest care that RAH is still better than Mesa?
This needs to be the wake up call for all major MECs. Scope reclaimation and protection needs to become #1 priority for all carriers.
(but much less on a per seat basis)
Their CA payrate is higher objectively (119$ vs $104) but on a per-seat basis much less than Mesa.
However, if you want to look at the percentage of undercutting -- ALPA has analyzed Mesa's contract and I believe I read it is about 20% under what it should be. Hmmmm...
Besides.... at this point it is in a entirely different ballgame. Yeah, our (Mesa's) contract sucks -- our most recent one only barely gets into the equivilant area near years older contracts from other carriers. But thats irrevelant. At this point it's comparing apples to oranges. Republic is now IMHO a major airline (or at least LCC ala JetBlue/frontier/etc), so who cares that you're still better than Mesa? You think pilots at United, Delta, Airways or Midwest care that RAH is still better than Mesa?
This needs to be the wake up call for all major MECs. Scope reclaimation and protection needs to become #1 priority for all carriers.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Re: 100 seat RJs finally here
I think it's really important to realize that even alter-ego carrier pilots are not true 'scabs'.
We need a different term for that sort of business, but smearing the pilots with it really isn't fair.
I think it's really important to realize that even alter-ego carrier pilots are not true 'scabs'.
We need a different term for that sort of business, but smearing the pilots with it really isn't fair.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Re: 100 seat RJs finally here
Bradley Tower told us to follow the "RJ", to the terminal. The "RJ" we were following was a US Air 190...
Bradley Tower told us to follow the "RJ", to the terminal. The "RJ" we were following was a US Air 190...
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Re: 100 seat RJs finally here
That's not an RJ.
Unless you cross a picket line to fly struck work, you are not a scab.
That's one of the most overused, least understood words in our aviation lexicon.
That's not an RJ.
Unless you cross a picket line to fly struck work, you are not a scab.
That's one of the most overused, least understood words in our aviation lexicon.
Tangodelta29
Well-Known Member
Re: 100 seat RJs finally here
20 years from now will there even be large jets anymore?... or just like 1000's of "little" RJ's that do cross country "regional" flights?
20 years from now will there even be large jets anymore?... or just like 1000's of "little" RJ's that do cross country "regional" flights?
deadstick
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't want to be anywhere near MKE when those things show up.
A couple of side notes:
--In the original RAH/Midex deal, Midex would get the planes, but the CBA at RAH prevented that. Since these are new planes, do they fall under the same rules? Also, did I see that there is only a 5 year contract on the 190s?
--If they have 100 seats, there has to be 3 FA's, right? This is exactly what Midex avoided with the 99 seat configuration. So why go to 100?
--If the RAH pilots never agreed to fly the 190, how is there a pay scale? Or is that a misprint? I thought there was some chatter about this point a couple of years ago.
A couple of side notes:
--In the original RAH/Midex deal, Midex would get the planes, but the CBA at RAH prevented that. Since these are new planes, do they fall under the same rules? Also, did I see that there is only a 5 year contract on the 190s?
--If they have 100 seats, there has to be 3 FA's, right? This is exactly what Midex avoided with the 99 seat configuration. So why go to 100?
--If the RAH pilots never agreed to fly the 190, how is there a pay scale? Or is that a misprint? I thought there was some chatter about this point a couple of years ago.
MusketeerMan
Well-Known Member
I disagree. Read all the dbags posts. I'm outta here. I put it nicely. Things are a little tense on our side right now, so I'm out. Don't want to say anything else other than the obvious. Ta ta.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Re: 100 seat RJs finally here
The EMB-190 is, without any discussion, a competitor against the 737.
JetBlue fly's 190's.
US Airways fly's 190's.
Now Republic fly's 190's.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the rest of your career. More and more folks are going to end up being unable to move on, so I hope ya'll have got good seats.
The EMB-190 is, without any discussion, a competitor against the 737.
JetBlue fly's 190's.
US Airways fly's 190's.
Now Republic fly's 190's.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the rest of your career. More and more folks are going to end up being unable to move on, so I hope ya'll have got good seats.
MusketeerMan
Well-Known Member
One more point..the press release (which is all we've heard and zippo from the company) states 100 seats. We don't have a pay scale for 100 seats. So, that has to be negotiated and with our M.I.A. union, who knows how that is going to happen. I have a hard time saying this, but ALPA sounds better on a daily basis.
I'm out.
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