R44 Instrument Training?

[rframe]

I was discussing instrument flight training with a DPE and I mentioned that the R44 is not IFR certified therefore one could not file an instrument flight plan, yet its commonly used to complete helicopter instrument ratings.

The DPE had a belief that the R44 was not allowed to fly in IMC because of the lack of an auto pilot but they could in fact file IFR.

To me this makes no sense at all. How could you receive an IFR clearance yet be required to remain in VFR conditions... I mean what are you going to do, ask for a deviation around every cloud?

Figured I'd go to the source and ask you helicopter pilots how this is handled. My belief is that all IFR training in the R44 is done while maintaining VFR and there is no way you could legally file IFR.

What say ye?

 

[deadstick]

No filing.

I think the small Diamonds were/are like this, too, because of lightning protection. Not sure though. You just have to remain VFR while training.

 

[Houston]

I don't know about the specifics of the R-44, but I know that is true of the Bell 206's that are not certified for IMC.

The aircraft has to meet all IFR requirements (pitot static check, VOR check, required IFR equipment, etc.) With that, it can file and fly IFR as long as it doesn't enter IMC.

After 9/11, various high activity area restricted flights to only those arriving or departing IFR. In that case, the ability to get out of and back into the area was essential to staying in business. Once away from the area, the pilot could cancel IFR and continue VFR. It also makes sense if one wishes to capitalize on the added safety aspect of being on an IFR flight plan.

It does seem strange, but it is correct.

 

[z987k]

Don't ifr helicopters need 2 engines as well?

 

[deadstick]

The 206 was certified IFR with a Collins AP. There were a few out of the factory this way, but I believe others were STC'd. There is is a SAS option with them, too.

 

[deadstick]

Don't ifr helicopters need 2 engines as well?

Only if...
1) flying EMS in TN.
2) you ask somebody at Vandy.

 

[z987k]

Only if...
1) flying EMS in TN.
2) you ask somebody at Vandy.

I realize that's a joke, unfortunately I don't understand the reference. I swear I had one of our rotor pilots tell me that.

 

[deadstick]

I realize that's a joke, unfortunately I don't understand the reference. I swear I had one of our rotor pilots tell me that.

Sorry. I was pretty sure you were EMS and thought you were referencing this "inside" joke.

As I understand it, Vanderbilt got the state of TN to enact a regulation that all HEMS operations (even VFR) in TN had to be done with 2 engine helicopters. It was kinda directed at one operator who flies 206L's (1E) exclusively. It went to court and there are still 206L's zooming around the great state of TN.

For helicopters, it really boils down to stability. Using various stability augmenting system, a helicopter can be certified to fly IFR. It's in Part 27, App B.

 

[z987k]

Sorry. I was pretty sure you were EMS and thought you were referencing this "inside" joke.

I am, but not familiar with Tennessee.. uh well anything. Except you guys make some truly awful whiskey.
I talk to our rotor guys occasionally, and I swear I heard someone actually say that. Maybe they were joking.

 

[Air 1]

I dug this out from an old thread on here where someone was discussing using a DA-20 for their instrument training, and I think it is relevant for this thread. Its an FAA order explaining the situation. This order may have been updated as I didn't bother to check, but the thread was from 2009.


FAA ORDER 8900.1, Volume 5.

5-439 USE OF AIRCRAFT NOT APPROVED FOR IFR OPERATIONS UNDER ITS TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR INSTRUMENT TRAINING AND/OR AIRMAN CERTIFICATION TESTING. The following paragraphs are intended to clarify the use of an aircraft not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate for instrument flight training and/or airman certification testing.

A. IFR Training in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC). Instrument flight training may be conducted during VMC in any aircraft that meets the equipment requirements of part 91 , sections (§§) 91.109 , 91.205 , and, for an airplane operated in controlled airspace under the IFR system, §§ 91.411 and 91.413 . An aircraft may be operated on an IFR flight plan under IFR in VMC, provided the PIC is properly certificated to operate the aircraft under IFR. However, if the aircraft is not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate, or if the appropriate instruments and equipment are not installed or are not operative, operations in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) are prohibited. The PIC of such an aircraft must cancel the IFR flight plan in use and avoid flight into IMC.

 

[deadstick]

Interesting. Good find.