Quick ? about course reversal holds...

If you can make a direct entry, it is dependent upon your clearance from ATC as to whether or not you need to do a turn in the 'hold'.

If you are cleared for a 'Straight-In' approach, you are not authorized to execute a turn in the hold. However, if you're concerned about being established and properly configured, or need time to lose altitude, you can request a turn. Sometimes the controllers will make a mistake(gasp, humans!?) and clear you for the approach with no mention of the 'Straight-In'. I highly recommend requesting clarification on this, as if you unexpectedly do the holding pattern, he may be surprised. Even though it wasn't your fault, be proactive and ensure what he needs.

Most often, if you are entering from the 'Direct' sector anyways, a NoPT will be depicted.
 
The key question here is Are you established inbound? If your not centered up on the cdi then I would definately want to do a loop and get things set up. But if your are all ready then you can head straight inbound once you've been cleared for the approach.
 
nofear said:
The key question here is Are you established inbound? If your not centered up on the cdi then I would definately want to do a loop and get things set up. But if your are all ready then you can head straight inbound once you've been cleared for the approach.
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You can? I've asked this before, when established inbound on an approach, if it doesn't say NoPT, the procedure turn is required in a non-radar environment. Makes no sense to me if the procedure turn exists to establish you inbound (if you are already on that radial in the first place). I have personally just told approach I'm going straight in, and they have never had an issue...
 
Xiph said:
I've always interpreted it as you have to go around the hold at least once, but that a teardrop or parallel entry counts. Basically:

- If you can do a direct entry, go around the hold and then continue the approach.
- If you can do a teardrop or parallel entry, do so, and then continue the approach. There is no need to go around the hold after completing the entry.
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I believe this is correct. Just because it is a direct entry, doesn't mean you are established on the approach. ATC will sometimes not be expecting a hold on the direct entry, so you should just tell them what you are doing so you are on the same page.

Similar thread here starting at post 11: http://forums.jetcareers.com/cfi-corner/99326-course-reversal.html
 
"The holding pattern maneuver is completed when the aircraft is established on the inbound course after executing the appropriate entry." (Appropriate entry would include teardrop, parallel, or direct.)

I've interpreted this exactly as it says.... That I've completed the maneuver after I've exectued the appropriate entry.

If its direct, I'm not going around the hold - I've "completed the holding pattern maneuver".

If I need to make another turn then I’d better tell ATC
 
Sidious said:
"The holding pattern maneuver is completed when the aircraft is established on the inbound course after executing the appropriate entry." (Appropriate entry would include teardrop, parallel, or direct.)

If its direct, I'm not going around the hold - I've "completed the holding pattern maneuver".
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Are you receiving vectors from ATC? If not, continuing past the fix does not sound correct. "Appropriate entry" suggests a flight path away from the holding fix followed by a turn to intercept and track the inbound course.

On some approaches, the IF and FAF are located at the same point. If we continue past the fix without executing a turn to enter the holding pattern, we have eliminated the intermediate segment of the approach. The intermediate segment is frequently necessary for establishing a stabilized approach at the appropriate altitude. There are also some direct entries where continuing inbound past the holding fix would require turning more than 90 degrees. Making such a turn, configuring for approach, descending, and establishing valid timing criteria sounds like a recipe for disaster.
 
nofear said:
The key question here is Are you established inbound? If your not centered up on the cdi then I would definately want to do a loop and get things set up. But if your are all ready then you can head straight inbound once you've been cleared for the approach.
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Just because your CDI isn't centered doesn't mean that you aren't established on the approach.
 
Pilot Hopeful said:
Are you receiving vectors from ATC? If not, continuing past the fix does not sound correct. "Appropriate entry" suggests a flight path away from the holding fix followed by a turn to intercept and track the inbound course.
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Direct is an appropriate entry no?

You spoke of having to turn more than 90 degrees to become established, if that was the case then just tell ATC that you will need one turn to become established.

If you’re receiving vectors then you aren't expected to do the hold anyway unless they tell you. AIM 5-4-9
 
Sidious said:
Direct is an appropriate entry no?

You spoke of having to turn more than 90 degrees to become established, if that was the case then just tell ATC that you will need one turn to become established.

If you’re receiving vectors then you aren't expected to do the hold anyway unless they tell you. AIM 5-4-9
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Funny, I asked this question just a few months ago. I was cleared Direct Cypress, cleared for the VOR 17 KMKY at 2000' and I happened to already be on the 331 radial. The chart only allows NoPT from HICUP, and I wasn't getting radar vectors. I don't think ATC was expecting me to fly the PT (and I didn't), though they did ask if I wanted it.
 
Xiph said:
I've always interpreted it as you have to go around the hold at least once, but that a teardrop or parallel entry counts. Basically:

- If you can do a direct entry, go around the hold and then continue the approach.
- If you can do a teardrop or parallel entry, do so, and then continue the approach. There is no need to go around the hold after completing the entry.
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Yes but if you are on a direct entry heading of 30 degrees or less, I would call that a vector to final....
 
Codyjp said:
Ok, show of hands here.

How many people here have actually had to use a hold to become established on a an approach for real in the last 12 months?

Here is Socal it never happens. Never. Ever. Never.

I still teach it because one day it will happen and my students need to be ready but in real life it just doesn't happen for us.
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Almost every day up here in the northern rockies In the Winter time!

A lot of our CFI's that come from back east (or south) have never done an Actual Instrument Approach without radar until coming here.
 
:deadhorse:

AIM 5-4-9

"The proecedure turn or hold-in-lieu-of-PT is a required maneuver when it is depicted on the approach chart." (with the noted exceptions)

"For a hold-in-lieu-of-PT, the holding pattern should be flown as depicted, to include leg length or timing."

"The holding pattern maneuver is completed when the aircraft is established on the inbound course after executing the appropriate entry."
 
Codyjp said:
Ok, show of hands here.

How many people here have actually had to use a hold to become established on a an approach for real in the last 12 months?

Here is Socal it never happens. Never. Ever. Never.

I still teach it because one day it will happen and my students need to be ready but in real life it just doesn't happen for us.
Click to expand...

Every single day when I was based in Rutland, Vermont. LOC Z 19 approach required a course reversal at KOPVE if you didn't come in from UTADE or PIPYO. Now that I'm looking at that most updated plate, it appears the "NoPT" has been removed:

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1003/00968LZ19.PDF

Keep in mind that even though this is the east coast, much of rural New England is still without low-altitude radar coverage.
 
dasleben said:
Every single day when I was based in Rutland, Vermont. LOC Z 19 approach required a course reversal at KOPVE if you didn't come in from UTADE or PIPYO. Now that I'm looking at that most updated plate, it appears the "NoPT" has been removed:

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1003/00968LZ19.PDF

Keep in mind that even though this is the east coast, much of rural New England is still without low-altitude radar coverage.
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I had to do exactly that last October...or September...don't remember, but I had to spin in the hold to get established inbound.

-mini
 
minitour said:
I had to do exactly that last October...or September...don't remember, but I had to spin in the hold to get established inbound.

-mini
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Yep, and I wouldn't hesitate to do it every time. Too much cumulus granite near that approach path...

I'm glad they took the NoPT out of those feeder routes, actually. With the distance from KOPVE to MPV or BTV, the feeder route was sometimes putting you a mile or two inside of KOPVE. At that point it's easy to get behind and unstable in the descent.

As far as the discussion goes, I'd also do the full turn in the hold even coming from PIPYO (which is an easy direct entry). ATC protects the entire approach course (including missed approach), so you're not going to cause any problems by doing the turn. Any aircraft behind you are going to be held well away from the approach course.
 
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