Quick ? about course reversal holds...

jhugz

jhugz

Well-Known Member
My understanding and from what I can tell from the Instrument Flying Handbook is that if you have a course reversal hold and have to enter it as a teardrop or parallel then you fly the entry and proceed inbound without ever making the race track pattern. If you can enter the hold direct you just proceed inbound on the app without ever doing the race track pattern. I was challenged on this the other day and I just don't see where he is coming from. He says you have to fly the pattern once before proceeding inbound.

:banghead: beating my head on this all day, I should know this as a -II. :crazy:
 
jhugz said:
My understanding and from what I can tell from the Instrument Flying Handbook is that if you have a course reversal hold and have to enter it as a teardrop or parallel then you fly the entry and proceed inbound without ever making the race track pattern. If you can enter the hold direct you just proceed inbound on the app without ever doing the race track pattern. I was challenged on this the other day and I just don't see where he is coming from.
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Correct. You would only make additional turns to lose altitude or become better established on course.
 
Regardless of what is legal I would generally think it would be much better to just go for a spin around the hold. It is there to get the pilot lined up for the approach afterall.

I'd do the turn.
 
jhugz said:
APP is not expecting this, that could get pretty dangerous, pretty quick IMO.
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I guess I'd have to look at the approach plate. The way I'm seeing it you could do a direct entry onto an approach that would require a 90 degree turn.

Regardless, if I suspected approach was looking for something different I'd clarify with them what I was doing or what they expected me to do.

For example on this approach you could be arriving on the 200 degree radial and instead of making a turn outbound for a loop around the hold go directly left to the 275 radial to the airport. I just don't see that working out well. Maybe I miss understood something.
 
If there is a hold-in-lieu published, and you are not reaching that hold from another published segment with NoPT, then you have to fly the entry to the hold unless otherwise approved by ATC.

Usually you see this if you are GPS direct to an IAF which has a hold-in-lieu. Even if you're aligned with the final approach course, you would still need to fly the entry to the hold.

This assumes you are not getting vectors to the final.
 
matt152 said:
If there is a hold-in-lieu published, and you are not reaching that hold from another published segment with NoPT, then you have to fly the entry to the hold unless otherwise approved by ATC.

Usually you see this if you are GPS direct to an IAF which has a hold-in-lieu. Even if you're aligned with the final approach course, you would still need to fly the entry to the hold.

This assumes you are not getting vectors to the final.
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Well said.

See also AIM 5-4-9 a.5

"The holding pattern maneuver is completed when the aircraft is established on the inbound course after executing the appropriate entry." (Appropriate entry would include teardrop, parallel, or direct.)

The sequence is as follows:
1. Reach holding fix.
2. Execute appropriate holding pattern entry (i.e., direct, teardrop, or parallel).
3. Proceed outbound from the holding fix.
4. Turn inbound.
5. Track inbound course; descend as appropriate.
6. Cross the holding fix.
7. Continue approach.
 
matt152 said:
Even if you're aligned with the final approach course, you would still need to fly the entry to the hold.

This assumes you are not getting vectors to the final.
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Be sure to look at all the approach plate. a LOT of the TAAs that' I've seen have a NoPT when approaching the center fix and still Roughly positioned to not need a course reversal.
 
I've always taught to hit the fix, then turn outbound...It makes pattern entry simpler. Go around the track as much as needed to get situated for the approach. Totally legal, totally easy.
 
chensley said:
I've always taught to hit the fix, then turn outbound...It makes pattern entry simpler. Go around the track as much as needed to get situated for the approach. Totally legal, totally easy.
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But totally necessary to let ATC know when you do something they don't expect. And, if you're in the way because you want to go around more than required, you might even be instructed to head somewhere else.
 
poser765 said:
Be sure to look at all the approach plate. a LOT of the TAAs that' I've seen have a NoPT when approaching the center fix and still Roughly positioned to not need a course reversal.
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Very true. The center fix usually has a notation "IAF/IF." If you are direct to the center fix, it becomes an IAF for you and you would fly the entry. If flying from one of the other IAFs in the TAA (the ones with the NoPT to the center fix), the center fix becomes an IF and you are not required or expected to fly the entry to the hold-in-lieu.
 
I've always interpreted it as you have to go around the hold at least once, but that a teardrop or parallel entry counts. Basically:

- If you can do a direct entry, go around the hold and then continue the approach.
- If you can do a teardrop or parallel entry, do so, and then continue the approach. There is no need to go around the hold after completing the entry.
 
Just an FYI tip I got from an examiner on my Inst. ride. If you look at a hold on an app plate, and it looks like a Paralell entry, do a teardrop. It gives you more time to get aligned with the approach. An example is look at the Coolidge, AZ (P08) GPS23 approach. If I were a little more computer literate with graphics, I could draw it up. But finger fly it, and you'll see what I am talking about.

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1002/09213G23.PDF
 
mshunter said:
Just an FYI tip I got from an examiner on my Inst. ride. If you look at a hold on an app plate, and it looks like a Paralell entry, do a teardrop. It gives you more time to get aligned with the approach. An example is look at the Coolidge, AZ (P08) GPS23 approach. If I were a little more computer literate with graphics, I could draw it up. But finger fly it, and you'll see what I am talking about.

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1002/09213G23.PDF
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He was probably referring to a VOR approach as it shouldn't matter on a GPS. I teach the same thing if the hold is on a VOR. Since the CDI deflection is in degrees, it is very easy for a student to execute a parallel entry and if they don't correct for winds, to wind up on the inbound track in the zone of confusion. Thus they never get any CDI reading other than full scale deflection (this is of course if they don't have a GPS moving map in front of them).

On a GPS approach the CDI is measured in NM on either side of the waypoint so you could roll out on the inbound 0.2 nm from the fix and get the same needle reading as 3 nm from it.
 
Ok, show of hands here.

How many people here have actually had to use a hold to become established on a an approach for real in the last 12 months?

Here is Socal it never happens. Never. Ever. Never.

I still teach it because one day it will happen and my students need to be ready but in real life it just doesn't happen for us.
 
Codyjp said:
Ok, show of hands here.

How many people here have actually had to use a hold to become established on a an approach for real in the last 12 months?

Here is Socal it never happens. Never. Ever. Never.

I still teach it because one day it will happen and my students need to be ready but in real life it just doesn't happen for us.
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I've done it several times in Northern AZ when flying in actual. Specifically Flagstaff and Prescott, granted it's been 24 months not 12 as I've been flying in Virginia for the last 12. Never done a hold as part of the initial approach here on the east coast yet, but I don't count out that it can happen.
 
I have always just proceeded inbound after intercepting the inbound course after the parallel or teardrop entry, and it seems like this is what ATC expects. As far as a direct entry when the notation "no PT" is not listed- I would just ask ATC if I could proceed inbound past the holding fix because again this is probably what they expect and if you are already aligned with the FAC there is no reason to make a lap in the hold. The distance from the IF/IAF holding fix to the FAF is usually in the 5 to 10NM range so you have plenty of room to lose altitude if needed.
 
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