Question about Gulfstream
- Thread starter PaulS
- Start date
E_Dawg
Moderator
Re: 9103M
[ QUOTE ]
So you're saying the program delivers what it promises (fast track to an F/O job), just at a high price and devaluation of the industry?
[/ QUOTE ]
Take the 'just' out of that sentence.
I and many other people want to make flying our careers. Hence, we come to jet'careers'.com.
People who support things like this eat away at our ability to enjoy a decent career.
[ QUOTE ]
So you're saying the program delivers what it promises (fast track to an F/O job), just at a high price and devaluation of the industry?
[/ QUOTE ]
Take the 'just' out of that sentence.
I and many other people want to make flying our careers. Hence, we come to jet'careers'.com.
People who support things like this eat away at our ability to enjoy a decent career.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
Fair enough....
....and maybe it's wrong for me to expect low time pilots to be all high and mighty, like I am, about the future of the profession if it's gonna cost them on a personal level. Like I've said a million times....it ain't going to affect me one way or another what happens at the bottom of the industry cause I've already got mine...
I just hate to see management finding new and exciting ways to take advantage of pilots....that's all.
Sorry for miss quoting you on the money thing.
....and maybe it's wrong for me to expect low time pilots to be all high and mighty, like I am, about the future of the profession if it's gonna cost them on a personal level. Like I've said a million times....it ain't going to affect me one way or another what happens at the bottom of the industry cause I've already got mine...
I just hate to see management finding new and exciting ways to take advantage of pilots....that's all.
Sorry for miss quoting you on the money thing.
Mr_Creepy
Well-Known Member
Re: Fair enough....
I had you under point 3 - rationalizing a bad decision.
Yes it was a bad decision. "It worked for me" is on the verge of being very selfish don't you think? By the way, you will be facing that decision for the rest of your career.
I'll quote a verse from the Book of Taylor:
"These guys lay out 25k just to get ahead and then complain that they have to sign training notes for a new job and get $5/hr"
Anyone, and I mean anyone(!) who pays Gulfstream to work there is hurting the position of pilots in the industry, period. There is no nice way to put it. It's not a nice thing.
As for Pinnacle hiring Gulfstream pilots: I have networked with Stephanie G. before and I was opposed to the idea of hiring Gulfstream pilots from day 1. She was in favor of it. I believe this whole situation might be why Kim M. left recruiting.
It not only hurts the pilots industry but it causes strife and dissension in the industry. There is enough of that already thank you!
Another point you made was that "you consulted your peers and found they were 50/50 against PFT." 50/50? Where were these peers? At Gulfstream?
At every airline I've been at it was at least 90/10 against, or maybe even 99/1! I leave the 1% for the few PFTers that lost their PFT jobs somehow and came over to our airline.
When I was a young pilot with low hours, the temptation to "get going" was very strong. I even sat down one night and tried to create a fake log book that had 1200 hrs in it. I had about 750 at the time. (You couldn't get a job anywhere with less than 1200 hrs in those days, and then all you could get was night freight.)
Not only was I getting a deep, guilty sense of wrong, but I found it was impossible to do! I had been flying nearly every day and there just wasn't enough time to add in 500 hours.
I almost went to Continental Express and paid Flight Safety the 10k. Thank God I stopped. I have never paid for a job in my career and I am eternally grateful. God (or Providence or whatever you want to call him) had everything in control and I was hired at Eagle shortly thereafter.
It is important for a low time pilot to have faith, and be patient. Your time will come!
I had you under point 3 - rationalizing a bad decision.
Yes it was a bad decision. "It worked for me" is on the verge of being very selfish don't you think? By the way, you will be facing that decision for the rest of your career.
I'll quote a verse from the Book of Taylor:
"These guys lay out 25k just to get ahead and then complain that they have to sign training notes for a new job and get $5/hr"
Anyone, and I mean anyone(!) who pays Gulfstream to work there is hurting the position of pilots in the industry, period. There is no nice way to put it. It's not a nice thing.
As for Pinnacle hiring Gulfstream pilots: I have networked with Stephanie G. before and I was opposed to the idea of hiring Gulfstream pilots from day 1. She was in favor of it. I believe this whole situation might be why Kim M. left recruiting.
It not only hurts the pilots industry but it causes strife and dissension in the industry. There is enough of that already thank you!
Another point you made was that "you consulted your peers and found they were 50/50 against PFT." 50/50? Where were these peers? At Gulfstream?
At every airline I've been at it was at least 90/10 against, or maybe even 99/1! I leave the 1% for the few PFTers that lost their PFT jobs somehow and came over to our airline.
When I was a young pilot with low hours, the temptation to "get going" was very strong. I even sat down one night and tried to create a fake log book that had 1200 hrs in it. I had about 750 at the time. (You couldn't get a job anywhere with less than 1200 hrs in those days, and then all you could get was night freight.)
Not only was I getting a deep, guilty sense of wrong, but I found it was impossible to do! I had been flying nearly every day and there just wasn't enough time to add in 500 hours.
I almost went to Continental Express and paid Flight Safety the 10k. Thank God I stopped. I have never paid for a job in my career and I am eternally grateful. God (or Providence or whatever you want to call him) had everything in control and I was hired at Eagle shortly thereafter.
It is important for a low time pilot to have faith, and be patient. Your time will come!
Pfly
Well-Known Member
Re: Fair enough....
[ QUOTE ]
Great thread.
Best discussion I've ever seen on the topic.
Professional all around.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. I don't post much but I read a lot. This discussion was informative and civil and a credit to all involved. I learned more in these 3 pages than in 10-15 in other threads on similar topics. Thanks to all.
John
[ QUOTE ]
Great thread.
Best discussion I've ever seen on the topic.
Professional all around.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. I don't post much but I read a lot. This discussion was informative and civil and a credit to all involved. I learned more in these 3 pages than in 10-15 in other threads on similar topics. Thanks to all.
John
ready2fly
Well-Known Member
Re: Fair enough....
Look - I've just read through TWO threads on the SAME TOPIC - one of which was 7 pages long!
I'm not going into the "PFT is bad" song and dance mainly because it's been beat to freakin' DEATH! If you don't get it by now, you won't get it.
That being said: WHAT'S THE RUSH???? Where's the fire? Where is this mythical wholesale hiring that you think is happening?
Yes, some companies are BEGINNING to hire again and/or call back their furloughees... but hiring on a large scale could still be YEARS away (don't know for certain - I don't have a crystal ball... and guess what.. neither do any of the "academies"/FBO's/PFT programs").
I'm 38 years old - I'll be 39 in less than three months and - forgive me if I don't get it - but, I'm going to INSTRUCT/fly for my firm/fly sight-seeing tours - whatever - until I have the EXPERIENCE to apply.
That's MY choice and the choice of hundreds of professional pilots on this site. So what that I'll be in my 40's before I "make it". That's my fault for waiting to do this... but that does NOT mean that I have to put myself, my wife or my family into SERIOUS debt for a CHANCE to get hired.
It's amazing how many folks buy into the "academy training is the BEST" and "Go from Zero to HERO in ____ days!!" and the peace de resistance "The Airlines are hiring NOW!".
Fact is - there is NO fast track to the airlines. It comes from hard work, dedication and desire.
I'm a HUGE proponent of the FBO route..... FOR ME! The academy routes might be the best for other folks who have that kind of cash to expend. I don't.
In the end - we all end up with the same ratings from the VERY SAME F.A.A. who could care less if you went to Joe's FBO or Harvard Flight Academy.
In the end - it's YOU who has to (and this is the point that I think is missed by some) WORK to get to the "top of the mountain" - be that the airlines, the big freight carriers or Corporate.
It ain't supposed to be easy folks!
Quit looking for the moving carpet and put you feet to the pavement and hump it if you want to get there!!
</sermon>
Just my $0.02
R2F
Look - I've just read through TWO threads on the SAME TOPIC - one of which was 7 pages long!
I'm not going into the "PFT is bad" song and dance mainly because it's been beat to freakin' DEATH! If you don't get it by now, you won't get it.
That being said: WHAT'S THE RUSH???? Where's the fire? Where is this mythical wholesale hiring that you think is happening?
Yes, some companies are BEGINNING to hire again and/or call back their furloughees... but hiring on a large scale could still be YEARS away (don't know for certain - I don't have a crystal ball... and guess what.. neither do any of the "academies"/FBO's/PFT programs").
I'm 38 years old - I'll be 39 in less than three months and - forgive me if I don't get it - but, I'm going to INSTRUCT/fly for my firm/fly sight-seeing tours - whatever - until I have the EXPERIENCE to apply.
That's MY choice and the choice of hundreds of professional pilots on this site. So what that I'll be in my 40's before I "make it". That's my fault for waiting to do this... but that does NOT mean that I have to put myself, my wife or my family into SERIOUS debt for a CHANCE to get hired.
It's amazing how many folks buy into the "academy training is the BEST" and "Go from Zero to HERO in ____ days!!" and the peace de resistance "The Airlines are hiring NOW!".
Fact is - there is NO fast track to the airlines. It comes from hard work, dedication and desire.
I'm a HUGE proponent of the FBO route..... FOR ME! The academy routes might be the best for other folks who have that kind of cash to expend. I don't.
In the end - we all end up with the same ratings from the VERY SAME F.A.A. who could care less if you went to Joe's FBO or Harvard Flight Academy.
In the end - it's YOU who has to (and this is the point that I think is missed by some) WORK to get to the "top of the mountain" - be that the airlines, the big freight carriers or Corporate.
It ain't supposed to be easy folks!
Quit looking for the moving carpet and put you feet to the pavement and hump it if you want to get there!!
</sermon>
Just my $0.02
R2F
N9103M
Well-Known Member
Re: Fair enough....
"I had you under point 3 - rationalizing a bad decision.
Yes it was a bad decision. "It worked for me" is on the verge of being very selfish don't you think? By the way, you will be facing that decision for the rest of your career."
Again, the reason i refuse to concede and call it a flat out bad descision is because my back up, if I had not gone to GIA, was to go to ATA. So right now I would be in extremely different waters, Loosing thousands to your freinds the Williams'. Selfish? Yes, mostly because I consider that one of the luckiest decsisions have made. Like it or not.
Also John, now I am wiser and fully understand the ramifications of what I did. Nor do I allow myself to intimidated by someone saying "This wil haunt you your whole career!". If it does, fine, it is something I will live with.
"I'll quote a verse from the Book of Taylor:
"These guys lay out 25k just to get ahead and then complain that they have to sign training notes for a new job and get $5/hr"
How this applies to me I am not sure, I never complained when I was there, it's your own fault if you sign a contract now knowing it's ramifications.
"Anyone, and I mean anyone(!) who pays Gulfstream to work there is hurting the position of pilots in the industry, period. There is no nice way to put it. It's not a nice thing."
Well we who PFT'ed are not alone in that boat either. Some say your ex-employer MESA is doing the same thing right now. Not a nice thing? Are you saying that every descison you have made in your career has been in the best interests of ALL pilots?
"As for Pinnacle hiring Gulfstream pilots: I have networked with Stephanie G. before and I was opposed to the idea of hiring Gulfstream pilots from day 1. She was in favor of it. I believe this whole situation might be why Kim M. left recruiting."
I am not even sure why you bring this up. It's not even your buisness. Are you in any position to change corporate policy up on Nonconnah? You're touting yourself to have some serious pull there. Which is extremely arrogant I might add. Next time I talk with Stepanie, I'll be sure to mention your name. And for Gulfstream pilots being the reason Kim M. left recruiting..... That is very wild speculation.
"It not only hurts the pilots industry but it causes strife and dissension in the industry. There is enough of that already thank you!"
Strife and Dessention that you yourelf are creating! We all share joint responsibility for it. You right now feel the need to spite a group of pilots for what reason? I personally affected you? NO! I can agree with many points everyone makes that are anti-PFT, but how can I chnge my opinon without sounding like a hypocrite? I'd rather be a PFT'er than a hypocrite any day.
"Another point you made was that "you consulted your peers and found they were 50/50 against PFT." 50/50? Where were these peers? At Gulfstream?"
No, my peers were frends and family that were pilots at Delta, ASA, United... Also my own CFI was one of those that guided me there. I respected all of thier opinions. Thats how I made my descision.
"At every airline I've been at it was at least 90/10 against, or maybe even 99/1! I leave the 1% for the few PFTers that lost their PFT jobs somehow and came over to our airline."
Granted that may be the case.... But those who are against it and are vocal about t are in the extreme minority in real life. I have only been confrinted about my PFT'ing once. Just recently in fact. Only to find out that that person himself had PFT'ed! He had tried to distance himself so far from his past that he was slamming other PFT'ers. Thats like a SCAB kicking a SCAB off the jumpseat. Very immature and very hypocritical.
"I almost went to Continental Express and paid Flight Safety the 10k. Thank God I stopped. I have never paid for a job in my career and I am eternally grateful. God (or Providence or whatever you want to call him) had everything in control and I was hired at Eagle shortly thereafter."
So God made you not PFT....... Congrats, I am glad you had the willpower. Thats great. I too would have that same pride, but I can't because I did PFT. Can't change it.
I'm not here to change anyone's opinion on PFT, those are for yourselves to determine. I'm just here to give people the view from the "other side of the fence" as it were.
Thank you for keeping this discussion semi-civilized.
"I had you under point 3 - rationalizing a bad decision.
Yes it was a bad decision. "It worked for me" is on the verge of being very selfish don't you think? By the way, you will be facing that decision for the rest of your career."
Again, the reason i refuse to concede and call it a flat out bad descision is because my back up, if I had not gone to GIA, was to go to ATA. So right now I would be in extremely different waters, Loosing thousands to your freinds the Williams'. Selfish? Yes, mostly because I consider that one of the luckiest decsisions have made. Like it or not.
Also John, now I am wiser and fully understand the ramifications of what I did. Nor do I allow myself to intimidated by someone saying "This wil haunt you your whole career!". If it does, fine, it is something I will live with.
"I'll quote a verse from the Book of Taylor:
"These guys lay out 25k just to get ahead and then complain that they have to sign training notes for a new job and get $5/hr"
How this applies to me I am not sure, I never complained when I was there, it's your own fault if you sign a contract now knowing it's ramifications.
"Anyone, and I mean anyone(!) who pays Gulfstream to work there is hurting the position of pilots in the industry, period. There is no nice way to put it. It's not a nice thing."
Well we who PFT'ed are not alone in that boat either. Some say your ex-employer MESA is doing the same thing right now. Not a nice thing? Are you saying that every descison you have made in your career has been in the best interests of ALL pilots?
"As for Pinnacle hiring Gulfstream pilots: I have networked with Stephanie G. before and I was opposed to the idea of hiring Gulfstream pilots from day 1. She was in favor of it. I believe this whole situation might be why Kim M. left recruiting."
I am not even sure why you bring this up. It's not even your buisness. Are you in any position to change corporate policy up on Nonconnah? You're touting yourself to have some serious pull there. Which is extremely arrogant I might add. Next time I talk with Stepanie, I'll be sure to mention your name. And for Gulfstream pilots being the reason Kim M. left recruiting..... That is very wild speculation.
"It not only hurts the pilots industry but it causes strife and dissension in the industry. There is enough of that already thank you!"
Strife and Dessention that you yourelf are creating! We all share joint responsibility for it. You right now feel the need to spite a group of pilots for what reason? I personally affected you? NO! I can agree with many points everyone makes that are anti-PFT, but how can I chnge my opinon without sounding like a hypocrite? I'd rather be a PFT'er than a hypocrite any day.
"Another point you made was that "you consulted your peers and found they were 50/50 against PFT." 50/50? Where were these peers? At Gulfstream?"
No, my peers were frends and family that were pilots at Delta, ASA, United... Also my own CFI was one of those that guided me there. I respected all of thier opinions. Thats how I made my descision.
"At every airline I've been at it was at least 90/10 against, or maybe even 99/1! I leave the 1% for the few PFTers that lost their PFT jobs somehow and came over to our airline."
Granted that may be the case.... But those who are against it and are vocal about t are in the extreme minority in real life. I have only been confrinted about my PFT'ing once. Just recently in fact. Only to find out that that person himself had PFT'ed! He had tried to distance himself so far from his past that he was slamming other PFT'ers. Thats like a SCAB kicking a SCAB off the jumpseat. Very immature and very hypocritical.
"I almost went to Continental Express and paid Flight Safety the 10k. Thank God I stopped. I have never paid for a job in my career and I am eternally grateful. God (or Providence or whatever you want to call him) had everything in control and I was hired at Eagle shortly thereafter."
So God made you not PFT....... Congrats, I am glad you had the willpower. Thats great. I too would have that same pride, but I can't because I did PFT. Can't change it.
I'm not here to change anyone's opinion on PFT, those are for yourselves to determine. I'm just here to give people the view from the "other side of the fence" as it were.
Thank you for keeping this discussion semi-civilized.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
Re: Fair enough....
"Another point you made was that "you consulted your peers and found they were 50/50 against PFT." 50/50? Where were these peers? At Gulfstream?"
"No, my peers were frends and family that were pilots at Delta, ASA, United... Also my own CFI was one of those that guided me there. I respected all of thier opinions. Thats how I made my descision."
Perhaps you could (and I'm not kidding) invite the peers you mention to this site to talk about why they feel pro-PFT. It would be interesting to hear a major airline pilot talk that way. I can see two reasons why one would. One would be pure ignorance about what it is and the other would be selfishness that it's okay for my kid to do it no matter what the ramifications are for the profession. Ask your major airline pilot peers if they would favor a system where one would have to pay 30K to buy into a job at a major and see what they say about that....
"Another point you made was that "you consulted your peers and found they were 50/50 against PFT." 50/50? Where were these peers? At Gulfstream?"
"No, my peers were frends and family that were pilots at Delta, ASA, United... Also my own CFI was one of those that guided me there. I respected all of thier opinions. Thats how I made my descision."
Perhaps you could (and I'm not kidding) invite the peers you mention to this site to talk about why they feel pro-PFT. It would be interesting to hear a major airline pilot talk that way. I can see two reasons why one would. One would be pure ignorance about what it is and the other would be selfishness that it's okay for my kid to do it no matter what the ramifications are for the profession. Ask your major airline pilot peers if they would favor a system where one would have to pay 30K to buy into a job at a major and see what they say about that....
Kingairer
'Tiger Team' Member
Re: Fair enough....
I just wish Gulfsteam "Airlines" would post the same ads they post in Flying Magazines in their own Aircraft! Can you imagine the little old lady passenger strapping in to seat 3A and pulling out the brochure that says Gulfstream Airlines, 0 to Airline pilot in 10 months! So thats right the guy up there wasnt even a pilot 11 months ago.!
Talk about some powerful marketing, Welcome Aboard..haha.
THe only justice we can feel for PFTers is their debt!
I just wish Gulfsteam "Airlines" would post the same ads they post in Flying Magazines in their own Aircraft! Can you imagine the little old lady passenger strapping in to seat 3A and pulling out the brochure that says Gulfstream Airlines, 0 to Airline pilot in 10 months! So thats right the guy up there wasnt even a pilot 11 months ago.!
THe only justice we can feel for PFTers is their debt!
Re: Fair enough....
How about cutting the guy a little slack, huh?
03M looks to be answering, honestly and without rancor, some tough questions from some people that are really down on choices he made in his past. It's not like he has to give that final admission that some are so obviously looking for, is it?
And I ain't gonna ask to do the group hug thing, neither!
How about cutting the guy a little slack, huh?
03M looks to be answering, honestly and without rancor, some tough questions from some people that are really down on choices he made in his past. It's not like he has to give that final admission that some are so obviously looking for, is it?
And I ain't gonna ask to do the group hug thing, neither!
Re: Fair enough....
[ QUOTE ]
Keep it civil, gentlemen. There's a good, honest exchange of ideas going on here, so let's not let emotions screw it up, copy?
.....And this isn't a request............
[/ QUOTE ]
That's the point I was trying to get across. Didn't mean to sound snippy.
[ QUOTE ]
Keep it civil, gentlemen. There's a good, honest exchange of ideas going on here, so let's not let emotions screw it up, copy?
.....And this isn't a request............
[/ QUOTE ]
That's the point I was trying to get across. Didn't mean to sound snippy.
Mr_Creepy
Well-Known Member
Re: Fair enough....
I don't think he's being very civil. He has called me arrogant, accused my ex-employer of backstabbing the industry, and challenged my relationship with people I used to work with. I assure you, both Kim and Stephanie know who I am. I never worked for Pinnacle but I had other projects where we crossed paths. All you've done so far is tear apart my post but not really disprove any of my points.
All this is indicative of someone who will regret their decision if they don't already.
As for ATA being an alternative well you haven't read my posts that closely if you think that I advocated ATA. I hated that place for several reasons. I hate everything it stands for - "Pay us LOTS of money and get on the fastrack to the airlines." I was friends with Rob and Melissa, and not close friends either, we just worked together and got along. The majority of students at ATA were trying to "shortcut" the system, skip out on paying dues and get to an airline job faster than anyone else.
I met some excellent people there but I met several of the other kind as well.
I was also shocked at some of the petty attitudes displayed by management, faculty, but mostly students! Talk about backstabbing, you couldn't mention any "airline hiring" secret without 10 guys going home and trying to call the chief pilot to cut their own deal. They screwed themselves out of several nice pipelines with airlines like ASA, Great Lakes and Eagle.
Enough about ATA.
I have my own Gulfstream story. Back in 1995 Gulfstream was going to buy some Shorts 360s. They needed pilots qualified in the Shorts. I was contacted since I was a Shorts pilot at Eagle at the time. I was offered a "street captain" deal where I didn't have to put up any money. I was very interested. I was dealing with Bill Viega Sr, who's son Bill is the Training Center owner/manager. I believe he started up the forerunners of Gulfstream called Avatar and Avtar.
Anyway negotiations were going well and finally I was asked to show up for a Monday class. I faxed in my resignation to Eagle. On my way down to SJU to do my last trip with Eagle I jumpseated through MIA so I could stop in and say hello to Bill Viega Jr. I got in his office and he said, "oh by the way, we'll need a check from you Monday for $15,000."
I said, "Say What?"
He said, "You didn't think we'd really let you in for free did you? No tickee no laundry! All your other Eagle buddies have already paid."
I walked out and told him to notice the mistletoe on my rear belt loop. Fortunately my chief pilot at Eagle let me back in after I fessed up to everything. I learned my lesson - stay away from those guys! Oh, by the way, NOBODY at Eagle had paid to go to Shorts class.
I don't think he's being very civil. He has called me arrogant, accused my ex-employer of backstabbing the industry, and challenged my relationship with people I used to work with. I assure you, both Kim and Stephanie know who I am. I never worked for Pinnacle but I had other projects where we crossed paths. All you've done so far is tear apart my post but not really disprove any of my points.
All this is indicative of someone who will regret their decision if they don't already.
As for ATA being an alternative well you haven't read my posts that closely if you think that I advocated ATA. I hated that place for several reasons. I hate everything it stands for - "Pay us LOTS of money and get on the fastrack to the airlines." I was friends with Rob and Melissa, and not close friends either, we just worked together and got along. The majority of students at ATA were trying to "shortcut" the system, skip out on paying dues and get to an airline job faster than anyone else.
I met some excellent people there but I met several of the other kind as well.
I was also shocked at some of the petty attitudes displayed by management, faculty, but mostly students! Talk about backstabbing, you couldn't mention any "airline hiring" secret without 10 guys going home and trying to call the chief pilot to cut their own deal. They screwed themselves out of several nice pipelines with airlines like ASA, Great Lakes and Eagle.
Enough about ATA.
I have my own Gulfstream story. Back in 1995 Gulfstream was going to buy some Shorts 360s. They needed pilots qualified in the Shorts. I was contacted since I was a Shorts pilot at Eagle at the time. I was offered a "street captain" deal where I didn't have to put up any money. I was very interested. I was dealing with Bill Viega Sr, who's son Bill is the Training Center owner/manager. I believe he started up the forerunners of Gulfstream called Avatar and Avtar.
Anyway negotiations were going well and finally I was asked to show up for a Monday class. I faxed in my resignation to Eagle. On my way down to SJU to do my last trip with Eagle I jumpseated through MIA so I could stop in and say hello to Bill Viega Jr. I got in his office and he said, "oh by the way, we'll need a check from you Monday for $15,000."
I said, "Say What?"
He said, "You didn't think we'd really let you in for free did you? No tickee no laundry! All your other Eagle buddies have already paid."
I walked out and told him to notice the mistletoe on my rear belt loop. Fortunately my chief pilot at Eagle let me back in after I fessed up to everything. I learned my lesson - stay away from those guys! Oh, by the way, NOBODY at Eagle had paid to go to Shorts class.
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
Re: Fair enough....
[ QUOTE ]
I walked out and told him to notice the mistletoe on my rear belt loop.
[/ QUOTE ]
You just gave a wonderful idea for the next holiday season.
[ QUOTE ]
I walked out and told him to notice the mistletoe on my rear belt loop.
[/ QUOTE ]
You just gave a wonderful idea for the next holiday season.
pilot602
If specified, this will replace the title that
Re: Fair enough....
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think he's being very civil. He has called me arrogant, accused my ex-employer of backstabbing the industry, and challenged my relationship with people I used to work with. I assure you, both Kim and Stephanie know who I am. I never worked for Pinnacle but I had other projects where we crossed paths. All you've done so far is tear apart my post but not really disprove any of my points.
All this is indicative of someone who will regret their decision if they don't already.
As for ATA being an alternative well you haven't read my posts that closely if you think that I advocated ATA. I hated that place for several reasons. I hate everything it stands for - "Pay us LOTS of money and get on the fastrack to the airlines." I was friends with Rob and Melissa, and not close friends either, we just worked together and got along. The majority of students at ATA were trying to "shortcut" the system, skip out on paying dues and get to an airline job faster than anyone else.
[/ QUOTE ]
You hated 'em so much you worked for 'em? I don't get that. Were you a secret-agent working to bring them down from the inside or am I just missing something here?
But you said this a few months back ...
The following are from this thread: Response to M Rolland
[ QUOTE ]
You may be out $90,000, but the Williams' didn't get that money, or at least not all of it.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I never saw a couple bust their collective asses to they extent they did to try and get interviews with regional airlines for their students. Rob was away from home schmoozing CEOs, pumping Chief Pilots with air, etc. Melissa was there working hard.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And during all this Rob was still a critically important member of the CRJ development team. He sat there 12 hrs a day when the technicians (who he paid to fly in from France) were there to repair that beast. Rob cared about quality. I know one was more disappointed at that shutdown than Rob Williams. I'm sure he has tremendous guilt feelings, and feels like he let a lot of people down, but I saw him leave on Thursday. He was down, down, down! He told me that the last bank had said no, and there was no financing available for the school. I said how much did he need? "A couple million, and now." was his response.
He and Melissa looked like someone had died, and I guess someone had. It was the Dream of having a successful life.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But bad people? I don't think so. I don't feel that they intentionally set out to bilk anyone or do anything criminal. At least not Rob and Melissa.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't call them friends. As I said before I knew none of them socially.
I am not saying anything good about the rest of the Williams' because I hardly knew them. I worked with Rob every day and Melissa some, and I think they would have done things much differently if they could have.
[/ QUOTE ]
And this thread: Former or Current Students
[ QUOTE ]
That ScrewedbyATA.org website was a huge mistake if you ask me. It made many of you look like whining cry babys. It was not well thought out.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Rob and Melissa are living in a 2br apt in ***(withheld)*** right now and will have their wages garnished for the next 3 lifetimes. I don't speak to any of the other family members but I hear things are pretty bad there. Sure like to know where all that MONEY is!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's time to drop the anger and move on. There is no undoing the damage that has been done, there is no money to recover, there is no getting the aztecs up and running again.
It is history and should be treated as such. It is also incredibly insensitive to think that the students were the only people who had their lives ruined.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is it John. Are you going to defend 'em (like in the other threads) or distance yourself from 'em (like in this thread). One or the other ... I don't really care which. Just be consistent.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think he's being very civil. He has called me arrogant, accused my ex-employer of backstabbing the industry, and challenged my relationship with people I used to work with. I assure you, both Kim and Stephanie know who I am. I never worked for Pinnacle but I had other projects where we crossed paths. All you've done so far is tear apart my post but not really disprove any of my points.
All this is indicative of someone who will regret their decision if they don't already.
As for ATA being an alternative well you haven't read my posts that closely if you think that I advocated ATA. I hated that place for several reasons. I hate everything it stands for - "Pay us LOTS of money and get on the fastrack to the airlines." I was friends with Rob and Melissa, and not close friends either, we just worked together and got along. The majority of students at ATA were trying to "shortcut" the system, skip out on paying dues and get to an airline job faster than anyone else.
[/ QUOTE ]
You hated 'em so much you worked for 'em? I don't get that. Were you a secret-agent working to bring them down from the inside or am I just missing something here?
But you said this a few months back ...
The following are from this thread: Response to M Rolland
[ QUOTE ]
You may be out $90,000, but the Williams' didn't get that money, or at least not all of it.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I never saw a couple bust their collective asses to they extent they did to try and get interviews with regional airlines for their students. Rob was away from home schmoozing CEOs, pumping Chief Pilots with air, etc. Melissa was there working hard.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And during all this Rob was still a critically important member of the CRJ development team. He sat there 12 hrs a day when the technicians (who he paid to fly in from France) were there to repair that beast. Rob cared about quality. I know one was more disappointed at that shutdown than Rob Williams. I'm sure he has tremendous guilt feelings, and feels like he let a lot of people down, but I saw him leave on Thursday. He was down, down, down! He told me that the last bank had said no, and there was no financing available for the school. I said how much did he need? "A couple million, and now." was his response.
He and Melissa looked like someone had died, and I guess someone had. It was the Dream of having a successful life.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But bad people? I don't think so. I don't feel that they intentionally set out to bilk anyone or do anything criminal. At least not Rob and Melissa.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't call them friends. As I said before I knew none of them socially.
I am not saying anything good about the rest of the Williams' because I hardly knew them. I worked with Rob every day and Melissa some, and I think they would have done things much differently if they could have.
[/ QUOTE ]
And this thread: Former or Current Students
[ QUOTE ]
That ScrewedbyATA.org website was a huge mistake if you ask me. It made many of you look like whining cry babys. It was not well thought out.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Rob and Melissa are living in a 2br apt in ***(withheld)*** right now and will have their wages garnished for the next 3 lifetimes. I don't speak to any of the other family members but I hear things are pretty bad there. Sure like to know where all that MONEY is!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's time to drop the anger and move on. There is no undoing the damage that has been done, there is no money to recover, there is no getting the aztecs up and running again.
It is history and should be treated as such. It is also incredibly insensitive to think that the students were the only people who had their lives ruined.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is it John. Are you going to defend 'em (like in the other threads) or distance yourself from 'em (like in this thread). One or the other ... I don't really care which. Just be consistent.
Mr_Creepy
Well-Known Member
Re: Fair enough....
pilot602 I'll be the first to say that I don't understand how your mind works, but I review all those statements and they are consistent.
What do you have a problem with? Where have I contradicted myself?
And why are you bringing ATA thread stuff in here?
As far as working for Gulfstream NO I DIDN'T. Read it again. That experience is how I found out what they were all about. I never worked there.
Or are you talking about ATA? I did not work directly for ATA. I was a contract CRJ instructor for a company under contract to them. I was hired to teach people Ground and Sim in the CRJ. I also did a couple of BE1900 classes. I was not management, nor was I faculty. I didn't like the place before I went there but I managed to be professional and do what I was paid for. I taught the CRJ and BE1900 to the best of my ability. While I was there I got to know Rob and Melissa (I did not know them beforehand) and I will repeat, I was impressed at how hard they worked to try and find their students jobs.
I can't speak for the rest of the family as I did not know them, but I know Rob and Melissa were greatly disappointed that the financing fell through and the doors were shut. The rest could be criminals for all I know.
pilot602 I'll be the first to say that I don't understand how your mind works, but I review all those statements and they are consistent.
What do you have a problem with? Where have I contradicted myself?
And why are you bringing ATA thread stuff in here?
As far as working for Gulfstream NO I DIDN'T. Read it again. That experience is how I found out what they were all about. I never worked there.
Or are you talking about ATA? I did not work directly for ATA. I was a contract CRJ instructor for a company under contract to them. I was hired to teach people Ground and Sim in the CRJ. I also did a couple of BE1900 classes. I was not management, nor was I faculty. I didn't like the place before I went there but I managed to be professional and do what I was paid for. I taught the CRJ and BE1900 to the best of my ability. While I was there I got to know Rob and Melissa (I did not know them beforehand) and I will repeat, I was impressed at how hard they worked to try and find their students jobs.
I can't speak for the rest of the family as I did not know them, but I know Rob and Melissa were greatly disappointed that the financing fell through and the doors were shut. The rest could be criminals for all I know.
