PSA New Hire Questions

All the military guys in my 121 class were a bit taken back by the training program and how hands off it is compared to the military. (At envoy not PSA)
 
BobDDuck said:
Really? I never experienced that. I always was boarded (as an SA3) before any SA5s, even if it was their company's plane, with the exception of the jumpseat.

I actually miss the non rev system at Airways. The one here is kind of a mess as far as transparency goes. The only nice thing is that it doesn't cost anything extra to list for and ride in first class.
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Yep that is the way it's supposed to work, often times AWAC guys would carry around the Wings travel guide printout to show agents
 
I'm kinda shocked that Hacker's friend knew what to expect in the oral and also knew that they weren't getting it. At just about every airline I've trained at, most people worry somewhat about preparation and at times can ask multiple people the same questions. I've learned to adapt quickly to the environment. That said, if a training department can tell you exactly what you need to know and won't provide you the tools to get yourself to that level, I would probably walk, too!
 
wheelsup said:
In depth knowledge levels, not much time to study. My personal experience shows it comes to a bit of a shock for those coming from the mil.
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What's bizarre to me is that your first sentence describes my USAF flying training experience to a T, so I'm at a loss as to the second sentence.

We used to joke that the training was a self study program that was graded daily.

I have never heard any of my former USAF acquaintances describe any of the airline training programs as any more difficult than what we've had in big blue.
 
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Hacker15e said:
I have never heard any of my former USAF acquaintances describe any of the airline training programs as any more difficult than what we've had in big blue.
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It's not that it's more difficult. It has to do with that in the military the standards and ways to get to the standards are written in stone. In 121 training (sometimes more so at certain companies) the process and the expectations move around a bit. That can be seriously off putting to somebody who has spend their entire career knowing that if they know the material as dictated by the Dash 1 and know the training schedule, they can expect the training and checking to follow that schedule and material.

EDIT: Dash 1 is the AFM right?
 
BobDDuck said:
It's not that it's more difficult. It has to do with that in the military the standards and ways to get to the standards are written in stone. In 121 training (sometimes more so at certain companies) the process and the expectations move around a bit. That can be seriously off putting to somebody who has spend their entire career knowing that if they know the material as dictated by the Dash 1 and know the training schedule, they can expect the training and checking to follow that schedule and material.

EDIT: Dash 1 is the AFM right?
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Okay, that makes perfect sense. Thanks.

Yes, the -1 is roughly the same as the POH/AFM.
 
wheelsup said:
This is from Jan 2014 so stuff might've changed

D1-Vacation Passes
D2-Employees and eligible travelers (spouses/domestic partners or registered guest and eligible children)
D2R-Retirees and eligible travelers
DP-Parents
D3-Buddy Passes
AAC-Active non-owned affiliate airline personnel
ONE-Oneworld personal travel
D4-OAL company business travel
ZED-Routine interline personal travel
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Is there somewhere that explicitly states that express employees no longer get priority on their metal?

I can see this being an issue when the new rules come out and the express guys think they still get priority in the back.
 
H46Bubba said:
I would have quit too! With the lackluster hiring going on at regionals with CRJ's, there should be a plethora of CRJ sims available. Did your friend state why the lag in between ground school and sims?
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You would think there would be, but it sure looks like people have been going all over the place. I believe Mesa is sending some CRJ new hires to Copenhagen (!!) for sim, and I think PSA recently had to buy a brand new sim in CLT, taking the place of one of the 737 sims at the Airways training center.
 
learhawkerbe400 said:
Is there somewhere that explicitly states that express employees no longer get priority on their metal?

I can see this being an issue when the new rules come out and the express guys think they still get priority in the back.
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FWIW I was in recurrent when this came out. The CEO of AWAC does conference calls with the classes and that was one of the questions asked. It was already making the rounds back then. I'm sure the stuff that comes out tomorrow will explain everything and be exactly what to expect.
 
wheelsup said:
FWIW I was in recurrent when this came out. The CEO of AWAC does conference calls with the classes and that was one of the questions asked. It was already making the rounds back then. I'm sure the stuff that comes out tomorrow will explain everything and be exactly what to expect.
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Are they releasing the details of the new nonrev system tomorrow?
 
PSA has a PRM (Pilot Reference Manual), FOM, and POH all available online. Contrary to popular belief the oral isn't 80% switches and systems, there's lots more to it. We've had some recent complaints that the oral was too in depth on weather and the flight release, but if we're issuing someone an ATP with a PIC type rating I would hope they would be strong in all areas. Blame Congress for the ATP rule on that one. Probably the biggest step back in safety I've witnessed during my short career with the airlines.

I think we're somewhat getting caught up on the lag between ground, the oral, and sim. There were some scheduling issues about 2 months ago. I too would have liked some time off between ground school and sim (got home from ground school Friday night, left for my simulator training on Sunday afternoon) but too much time off is also not a good thing. Everyone is getting paid during their time off, how they use it is up to them. That being said our goal is to provide the best possible product to our customers, the students.
 
"We've had some recent complaints that the oral was too in depth on weather and the flight release, but if we're issuing someone an ATP with a PIC type rating I would hope they would be strong in all areas. Blame Congress for the ATP rule on that one. Probably the biggest step back in safety I've witnessed during my short career with the airlines."

So. I hear you saying that greater knowledge due to the ATP rule is a step back in safety. Sure that's not what you really meant. I just cut and paste. You said it. Personally, I'm a big fan of greater knowledge and experience requirements to be an airline pilot. Long overdue. The 250 hour wonder from Jet U was the real problem.
 
DE727UPS said:
So. I hear you saying that greater knowledge due to the ATP rule is a step back in safety. Sure that's not what you really meant. I just cut and paste. You said it. Personally, I'm a big fan of greater knowledge and experience requirements to be an airline pilot. Long overdue. The 250 hour wonder from Jet U was the real problem.
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The biggest step back in safety is the fact that we're now issuing an ATP with a PIC type rating to someone who most likely has absolutely zero hours in the airplane and probably zero hours of 121 experience. Many airlines were scrambling to find a loophole, and they did. The ATP is issued during a Proficiency Check instead of the "one and done" Type Ride.

Now when it comes to Upgrade the candidate must only pass a Proficiency Check since they already have the ATP with CL-65 type rating. They have 3 strikes during the PC, whereas before they only had one. I believe everyone makes mistakes and has a bad day, but what was designed to place more experienced pilots at the airlines has in turn given someone who may not have made it to the left seat previously a better chance.
 
EDUC8-or said:
The biggest step back in safety is the fact that we're now issuing an ATP with a PIC type rating to someone who most likely has absolutely zero hours in the airplane and probably zero hours of 121 experience.
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For more than a decade, military guys have been getting ATPs and 737 types (with zero time in the airplane and zero 121 time) as their means to get to the major, and it hasn't been the source of some safety problem. Higher Power Aviation pretty much owes most of its business model to this process, and literally thousands of military pilots have been hired by 121 carriers with these tickets and been safe and successful line pilots afterward.

Why would the same process, albeit with a group of differently experienced pilots but at the end of a full 121 training program, now suddenly be considered a "step back in safety"?

EDUC8-or said:
someone who may not have made it to the left seat previously a better chance.
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If a guy isn't qualified to potentially sit in the left seat in the future, he shouldn't be sitting in the right seat, anyway.
 
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EDUC8-or said:
The biggest step back in safety is the fact that we're now issuing an ATP with a PIC type rating to someone who most likely has absolutely zero hours in the airplane and probably zero hours of 121 experience. Many airlines were scrambling to find a loophole, and they did. The ATP is issued during a Proficiency Check instead of the "one and done" Type Ride.

Now when it comes to Upgrade the candidate must only pass a Proficiency Check since they already have the ATP with CL-65 type rating. They have 3 strikes during the PC, whereas before they only had one. I believe everyone makes mistakes and has a bad day, but what was designed to place more experienced pilots at the airlines has in turn given someone who may not have made it to the left seat previously a better chance.
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It's a different animal under AQP but:

At Pinnacle, the CA upgrade was a one and done, and so was my ATP/Type.
 
Hacker15e said:
For more than a decade, military guys have been getting ATPs and 737 types (with zero time in the airplane and zero 121 time) as their means to get to the major, and it hasn't been the source of some safety problem. Higher Power Aviation pretty much owes most of its business model to this process, and literally thousands of military pilots have been hired by 121 carriers with these tickets and been safe and successful line pilots afterward.

Why would the same process, albeit with a group of differently experienced pilots but at the end of a full 121 training program, now suddenly be considered a "step back in safety"?



If a guy isn't qualified to potentially sit in the left seat in the future, he shouldn't be sitting in the right seat, anyway.
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I'm guessing your military training was a bit more structured than Mom n Pop's flight school. How would you compare your experience with someone who got most of their 1500 hours doing mostly banner towing or VFR time building in a Cessna 152? What about the speeds at which you flew and the complexity of the systems?

We do our best to hire "Captains in Training" but an Initial Program is much different than Upgrade. While decision making definitely plays a large role during Initial Training, it's a HUGE part of Upgrade. We've had some people who towed banners that struggled through Initial. I'd see them months or years down the road and they'd kick the crap out of their checkrides. They worked hard and squeaked through their Initial training, but there's no way they were qualified to sit in the left seat at the completion of their training.

At the other end of the spectrum we get people who make it through Initial training and either don't apply themselves or they are the very small percentage that just doesn't "get it". Sounds harsh, but anyone who has been at the airlines will understand. Now that person has more chances to pass their Upgrade PC. A one and done Type Ride weeds those people out.
 
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