PSA CRJ-700 AA midair collision

Roger Roger said:
I’m gonna channel Todd here and say that if your airspace setup constantly generates this kind of situation, it’s not serving the purposes of controlled airspace.
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The problem is having busy satelite airports underneath the bravo. The bravo is made essentially in a vacuum for its airport, nevermind that there are 3 other towered and 3 non-towered airports underneath it that forces all the non-participating traffic into those airports traffic patterns. And that’s just for my area under the NY B, not even including LGA/JFK areas of the B.
 
NovemberEcho said:
The problem is having busy satelite airports underneath the bravo. The bravo is made essentially in a vacuum for its airport, nevermind that there are 3 other towered and 3 non-towered airports underneath it that forces all the non-participating traffic into those airports traffic patterns. And that’s just for my area under the NY B, not even including LGA/JFK areas of the B.
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The safest solution would be to wrap those airports into the Bravo. But, we can’t staff/operate the ATC system as is so we keep doing what we’re doing and hope it works out ok.
 
Roger Roger said:
The safest solution would be to wrap those airports into the Bravo. But, we can’t staff/operate the ATC system as is so we keep doing what we’re doing and hope it works out ok.
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The biggest opponent of doing anything that expands a Bravo or Charlie airspace is the AOPA. It takes a literal act of Congress to change bravo airspace. Expanding the bravo would put less strain on ATC because we wouldn’t have to dedicate so much time avoiding kamikaze VFR’s.
 
NovemberEcho said:
The biggest opponent of doing anything that expands a Bravo or Charlie airspace is the AOPA. It takes a literal act of Congress to change bravo airspace. Expanding the bravo would put less strain on ATC because we wouldn’t have to dedicate so much time avoiding kamikaze VFR’s.
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The problem is that each airspace very much has their own culture. I’d vehemently oppose Chicago getting another square inch of Class B based on the treatment they’ve consistently given me in various GA aircraft operating VFR. Atlanta? Take whatever you need to run safely, I know that if I’m in a Baron trying to transit north-south that I can get through. Instead of playing whack-a-mole it would be refreshing if the FAA took a top-down look at how to standardize airspace nationwide (since planes do silly things like take off and land at different airports) and provide consistent treatment to GA.
 
Roger Roger said:
Yeah, I have heard that.
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We have been trying to get the B lowered to 1400’ (currently 3000) west of CDW and north of TEB to protect the TEB 19 final for decades but always told no. The amount of VFR’s who cut through TEB’s final at 2,000 is ridiculous and we have very very little room to manuever around them because EWR is above at 3k and LGA/HPN traffic is just east of TEB. I’m honestly amazed nothing has happened there yet.
 
arkflyr said:
I used to fly MMU-HPN and back to start and finish trips, we constantly would RA’s from VFR traffic skirting the edge of the Bravo not talking at all to you guys.

The best was one afternoon I got a climbing RA that seconds later changed to descending during a frequency change.
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It doesn’t help mmu and CDW have a habit of yeeting VFR’s out of the delta right into the face of IFR’s at 3000. And don’t even get me started on the guys skirting above the D’s and below the B at 2700/2800 when I need to be there at 3000.
 
Wardogg said:
Without reading the actual CVR I get the feeling they never had the airplane in sight. And the request to maintain visual separation seemed perfunctory at best. An automated response. The constant altitude error callouts are chilling. When good enough for government work just isn’t good enough.
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It just seems there was also an obvious expectation bias that the Helo route is 100% separated from all traffic which would lead them to believe that being around the route they are good and not care as much about actually finding the traffic or crossing in front of the rwy that traffic was landing on.... IP was also focused on the trainer and not outside. There was way too much comfort operating on this route.
 
NovemberEcho said:
We have been trying to get the B lowered to 1400’ (currently 3000) west of CDW and north of TEB to protect the TEB 19 final for decades but always told no. The amount of VFR’s who cut through TEB’s final at 2,000 is ridiculous and we have very very little room to manuever around them because EWR is above at 3k and LGA/HPN traffic is just east of TEB. I’m honestly amazed nothing has happened there yet.
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That’s odd. P50 got the shelf on final outside the surface area for RWs 25s/26 lowered from 3000’ to 2700’ a couple of years back. Seemingly with no issue. Though the opposite side for the 7s and 8, the shelf is still at 3000’
 
cmac88 said:
It just seems there was also an obvious expectation bias that the Helo route is 100% separated from all traffic which would lead them to believe that being around the route they are good and not care as much about actually finding the traffic or crossing in front of the rwy that traffic was landing on.... IP was also focused on the trainer and not outside. There was way too much comfort operating on this route.
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I’d like to see the CVR transcript to see just how much the IP was actually devoting to training in-cockpit, versus being outside. Discussion should be recorded reflecting that, as well as any task saturation, decreased SA, confusion on traffic sort, or anything else of interest.
 
MikeD said:
That’s odd. P50 got the shelf on final outside the surface area for RWs 25s/26 lowered from 3000’ to 2700’ a couple of years back. Seemingly with no issue. Though the opposite side for the 7s and 8, the shelf is still at 3000’
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They got the B lowered to protect their own final. Lowering to protect a non-B airports final another story
 
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