Transient parking looks like a Walmart lot as well
Plans are great, use them every day to manage my programs.....
.......Also have another tool that tracks Risks, Issues and Opportunities for when those plans get screwed up!
Guess which tool gets used more?
I thought they were all Angry Cat Ladies? Mistaken?
HVYMETALDRVR
Well-Known Member
You guys are so right it hurts.Did I mention I already put $1000 down to ATP?
1,000 is peanuts compared to the pain that may be inflicted...
My .02 cents (that hasn't already been said). ATP will make you hate flying, it takes the fun out of it, you have no time off, when your not flying your studying and vice versa. It gets old after 6 months straight. Some (not all) of the guys that run things there can be downright demeaning and disrespectful to they're students as well. Since its a pilot mill your pushed very hard, often to take check-rides when your not ready, or worse the examiners are pushed to pass guys that aren't ready. ATP leaves a lot of guys bitter and disillusioned, some make it through okay. I just don't see it being enjoyable. (I worked at ATP)
Keep your day job, fly for fun on your time off, and network. Your only 23, you have plenty of time and you don't want to blow crazy money and get lots of busts on your ticket. Enjoy the ride and stay away from debt!
jwp_145
GhostRider in the Sky
THIS ^^^^^
I did all of my flight training through Oklahoma State Univ and TUlsa COmmunity College's Aviation Alliance Program (All 4 years of classroom/airplane work was split between the two in a seamless integration), and 100% of my loans are federal. Because I was in an aviation program, my max cap to borrow went much higher.
I did 4 years of college, bachelors degree, and all the way through MEI and, paying exclusively with loans and scholarshps and Pell grants, have $45,000 in student loan debt. This was from 2002-2007. THe majority of my classroom stuf was covered by scholarship, tuition waivers, grants, etc (I had a 4.0gpa so that helped). I think now if one were to go through the same program it would cost about $60K, still all federal loans.
Now that I am in repayment, it is income based. I net around 30k a year as a regional FO, and my loan payment this year is $202/month. Very manageable. The way I rationalize it in the middle of the night when I wake up out of breath thinking about being 45k in debt is that it is the price of a new Dodge CUmmins truck!
I had a buddy who went to ATP. He busted his ass for 1 year working construction as many hours as he possible could, saved every single penny he found on the street, and went to the ATP in Dallas and did the 90 day post-private license program. He is a great pilot, but he said it was intense.
I've never heard a good story about Sally May.
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Cóndor
Well-Known Member
Definitely! Get the degree out of the way first . . . I'd suggest getting a Computer Information Systems one since you can apply some of the business courses you may have already taken, not to mention that the IT field seems to be making its way deeper into aircraft cockpits than ever before . . . knowing the inside outs of an iPad will come in very handy . . . x1000 if you know how to write/understand the source code that the typical airliner FMS and Garmins/Avidynes/Dynons run on. Like others have advised, do not pay for, or finance, flight training costs upfront. At your age, I'd keep hammering at the degree while you have fun taking lessons at a local flight school and pay those as you go via a P/T job . . . you never know what stumbling blocks may pop up in your aviation career (illnesses, accidents, etc.) and having a plan B to fall back on financially will always work wonders for ya!
FredsGotSlacks
Well-Known Member
My recommendation is that you should get your degree before you pursue flight training or go to an aviation college (as long as its not riddle or UND). I fly with lots of captains that still don't have their degree and they can't get it because of a combination of time, money, and complacency. I was in your shoes in 2008, I went and visited ATP and was set to enroll but about a month before that the economy took a dump and I couldn't get financing, so instead I went to LA Tech and finished up my degree while completing my flight training. That ended up being the perfect series of events for me but everyone has their own path to success, hopefully you can find yours.
T
tpowell91
Guest
I'm at an impasse.
Part of me wants to finance an antique Skyhawk for $30k and take out another $30k to have the plane wet with another meatbag in the seat. Possibly even fractional air. Being able to hire my own cfi sounds appealing. I would get to learn more maintenance, and be able to sell the plane when I'm ready.
Other part wants to jump in the slingshot that is ATP and see where it takes me. I want the intensity. I don't see myself in Vegas more than a 3-4 years, so ATP catches my interest.
Great information in this thread though. I'm interested in NJC, and I'll probably be at the Red Bull race! I'll be sure to update my decision soon.
Part of me wants to finance an antique Skyhawk for $30k and take out another $30k to have the plane wet with another meatbag in the seat. Possibly even fractional air. Being able to hire my own cfi sounds appealing. I would get to learn more maintenance, and be able to sell the plane when I'm ready.
Other part wants to jump in the slingshot that is ATP and see where it takes me. I want the intensity. I don't see myself in Vegas more than a 3-4 years, so ATP catches my interest.
Great information in this thread though. I'm interested in NJC, and I'll probably be at the Red Bull race! I'll be sure to update my decision soon.
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tpowell91
Guest
Will do. Are you still in Vegas?
SeanD
Well-Known Member
Yep. I live in Henderson
genot
Well-Known Member
It isn't an antique just because it was built before you were born. Not that I'm asked about the state of aircraft maintenance often, but when I am my reply is if A&P's were in charge of auto maintenance the first Model T would have never been not road worthy. Standards are exceptionally high. I can tell you from personal experience they aren't exactly the average 19 year old working at Jiffy Lube types. One of my college roommates was an A&P student. he did a frame up restoration on a 66 Mustang starting at 14, finished at 20 while taking time off to do a resto on his brother's vintage VW Bug, build a jet engine out of a turbo charger, do the college thing and get all his licenses. He flies missionary work now based (I can only assume) on the fact that he could McGuyver a prop out of arm hair and duct tape.
francis03
Well-Known Member
Dude, why do you have to go to ATP? Ur paying more for the same license and, as someone has said earlier, it takes the fun out of flying since you're gonna be drinking out of a fire hose.
I was in your position when I was coming out of high school. I took an intro flight at American Flyers and listened as they were stirring up the koolaid. I came very close to taking out that big loan and doing their zero-to-hero CFI Academy. But after some research and a lot of advice from people in the industry, I decided that the best course of action was to go to college and find a decently sized flight school.
Last May I graduated from the Arizona State University in Tempe with a major in Geography and got my commercial pilot certificate 2 months after that. If I were to do it again, I wouldn't have changed a thing. I had the most amazing time in college and at the same worked on my certificates at my own pace, which I believe allowed me to enjoy flying more.
My advice is not to rush things and not to get into too much debt. I currently owe everyone's bestie, Sallie Mae, $20,000 in student loans but $0 from flying. As one of my mentors said "You're gonna be working the rest of your life, enjoy it now while you can."
P.S. Pretty ironic that my alma matter's flight program provider is ATP.....
I was in your position when I was coming out of high school. I took an intro flight at American Flyers and listened as they were stirring up the koolaid. I came very close to taking out that big loan and doing their zero-to-hero CFI Academy. But after some research and a lot of advice from people in the industry, I decided that the best course of action was to go to college and find a decently sized flight school.
Last May I graduated from the Arizona State University in Tempe with a major in Geography and got my commercial pilot certificate 2 months after that. If I were to do it again, I wouldn't have changed a thing. I had the most amazing time in college and at the same worked on my certificates at my own pace, which I believe allowed me to enjoy flying more.
My advice is not to rush things and not to get into too much debt. I currently owe everyone's bestie, Sallie Mae, $20,000 in student loans but $0 from flying. As one of my mentors said "You're gonna be working the rest of your life, enjoy it now while you can."
P.S. Pretty ironic that my alma matter's flight program provider is ATP.....
francis03
Well-Known Member
Dude, why do you have to go to ATP? Ur paying more for the same license and, as someone has said earlier, it takes the fun out of flying since you're gonna be drinking out of a fire hose.
I was in your position when I was coming out of high school. I took an intro flight at American Flyers and listened as they were stirring up the koolaid. I came very close to taking out that big loan and doing their zero-to-hero CFI Academy. But after some research and a lot of advice from people in the industry, I decided that the best course of action was to go to college and find a decently sized flight school.
Last May I graduated from the Arizona State University in Tempe with a major in Geography and got my commercial pilot certificate 2 months after that. If I were to do it again, I wouldn't have changed a thing. I had the most amazing time in college and at the same worked on my certificates at my own pace, which I believe allowed me to enjoy flying more.
My advice is not to rush things and not to get into too much debt. I currently owe everyone's bestie, Sallie Mae, $20,000 in student loans but $0 from flying. As one of my mentors said "You're gonna be working the rest of your life, enjoy it now while you can."
P.S. Pretty ironic that my alma matter's flight program provider is ATP.....
I was in your position when I was coming out of high school. I took an intro flight at American Flyers and listened as they were stirring up the koolaid. I came very close to taking out that big loan and doing their zero-to-hero CFI Academy. But after some research and a lot of advice from people in the industry, I decided that the best course of action was to go to college and find a decently sized flight school.
Last May I graduated from the Arizona State University in Tempe with a major in Geography and got my commercial pilot certificate 2 months after that. If I were to do it again, I wouldn't have changed a thing. I had the most amazing time in college and at the same worked on my certificates at my own pace, which I believe allowed me to enjoy flying more.
My advice is not to rush things and not to get into too much debt. I currently owe everyone's bestie, Sallie Mae, $20,000 in student loans but $0 from flying. As one of my mentors said "You're gonna be working the rest of your life, enjoy it now while you can."
P.S. Pretty ironic that my alma matter's flight program provider is ATP.....
T
tpowell91
Guest
Neat. PM me sometime
Heh, yeah I was being a smartass about antique. :stir: I would love to own a 50's-70'2 Cessna. I've been lurking trade-a-plane hard after reading this thread.
Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
Depends what your finances are and do you want to own a twin. A late 70's PA44 would be in the neighborhood of 85-100k. If you are just going for the ME and MEI ratings in the twin then a mom and pop part 61 school would most likely make the most sense. If you want to build a lot of time and own a twin long term then buy one. However, It will be hard to get insurance on the twin until you have significant ME time.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
The only way I would buy a plane is if you had the income to do it now (ie a decent job). IMO. Probably the only way you can even get a loan too.
For a point of reference, a buddy of mine did a 2 year college aviation program, got hired at a regional at 20, upgraded at 23, completed his 4-year via an online program and was at a legacy at age 28 which is crazy young for the current times (most are mid-30's).
$40k, $50k, $60k in debt, I know it sounds like a lot but it's easily repayable and quickly. Drinking every weekend with a new car living in a swanky apartment? Nope. Living in domicile, being an open time wh0re and using a crash pad as a temp housing situation, with little overhead yep.
Quick budget:
Pre-paid cell w/ internet $45
Crash pad rent $250 (covers housing, internet, water, electricity, cable)
Food $250
Car mx/taxes/insurance $70
Clothes $30
Interest on loan @ 5% $60k: $200
----------------------------------------------
$815/month needed minimum
In 3-4 years at the commuters the majority of that loan will be paid off.
I know a guy who bought an RV and lived in that for a couple years too.
It's not the best life. But it's temporary. It will make you appreciate your later years.
Either way you're going to have to pay for the training. That money is gone regardless, what we are talking about here is the interest paid. Interest over 6 years @ 5% on a $60k loan is $9,500. Yeah, that's some scratch but not really that much money in the big scheme of things if it allows you to pull the trigger and go balls to the wall and get it done ASAP vs drawing it out over a couple years. Note, I'm not recommending ATP, be smart with your money too.
Note: All this goes out the window if you have a good job after leaving college. Then by all means live like a hermit and save up to pay cash over the period of a year or so.
For a point of reference, a buddy of mine did a 2 year college aviation program, got hired at a regional at 20, upgraded at 23, completed his 4-year via an online program and was at a legacy at age 28 which is crazy young for the current times (most are mid-30's).
$40k, $50k, $60k in debt, I know it sounds like a lot but it's easily repayable and quickly. Drinking every weekend with a new car living in a swanky apartment? Nope. Living in domicile, being an open time wh0re and using a crash pad as a temp housing situation, with little overhead yep.
Quick budget:
Pre-paid cell w/ internet $45
Crash pad rent $250 (covers housing, internet, water, electricity, cable)
Food $250
Car mx/taxes/insurance $70
Clothes $30
Interest on loan @ 5% $60k: $200
----------------------------------------------
$815/month needed minimum
In 3-4 years at the commuters the majority of that loan will be paid off.
I know a guy who bought an RV and lived in that for a couple years too.
It's not the best life. But it's temporary. It will make you appreciate your later years.
Either way you're going to have to pay for the training. That money is gone regardless, what we are talking about here is the interest paid. Interest over 6 years @ 5% on a $60k loan is $9,500. Yeah, that's some scratch but not really that much money in the big scheme of things if it allows you to pull the trigger and go balls to the wall and get it done ASAP vs drawing it out over a couple years. Note, I'm not recommending ATP, be smart with your money too.
Note: All this goes out the window if you have a good job after leaving college. Then by all means live like a hermit and save up to pay cash over the period of a year or so.
genot
Well-Known Member
Its not just interest paid its interest paid minus investment returns. That minus 9,500 turns into a plus 40,000 awfully quickly. I know full well I'm risk adverse, but to say well its just 9,500 at the end of the day is completely missing the point. Absolutely there is a point of reason if OP is looking at solid money to replace the gains year 2 or 3, then sure nut up and take the plunge.
I have to say I'm looking at your budget and wondering how exactly you make it work. Mind you I'm sure that is workable and I'm pretty sure I did the same in college, but the goal was to not have to do that after college. You can certainly cut corners and go full blown Ramen, but doing that and needing a medical screams BP meds in your 30's.
I have to say I'm looking at your budget and wondering how exactly you make it work. Mind you I'm sure that is workable and I'm pretty sure I did the same in college, but the goal was to not have to do that after college. You can certainly cut corners and go full blown Ramen, but doing that and needing a medical screams BP meds in your 30's.
PositionAndHold
Well-Known Member
Holy hell, at a regional by 20? That's 45 years of pushing (sorry mashing) buttons. I think if I did any one thing for 45 years I'd eat a bullet long before that. He might end up with a great career, but that's a loooooong time. I'm 38, only been flying for pay the last eight years and I'm still not sure what I'll be doing in another ten.
OP: You're young, enjoy it. Do stuff that really interests you; learn a skill, a new language, meet some incredible people, date some of them, and get your heart broken a few times. I know you think you need to rush, rush, rush. You don't. Enjoy the ride you only get one turn. I look back at the last twenty years and wonder where the hell it went. I also look back and smile at all the good times I had along the way. I'm pretty sure when my time is up, I'm not going to be thinking about flying, I'll be thinking about all the awesome people I've had the fortune to know and love. Don't let a job define your life. Sorry, end of rant.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
In the past 30 days I've worked a total of two (on call reserve, 12 hour call out)...imagine what that kind of freedom can give you, especially at a young age when you can enjoy it. I've spent the last month doing all sorts of fun things, I spend more time doing hobbies than work. My neighbors think I'm unemployed.
The job is merely a means to enjoy life.
If I could change anything it would be to do ATP or similar program right out of high school. Do my degree online while at a commuter, I know a guy who did his for a total of $10k out of pocket, he's at SWA now. Was 30 when he was hired , he was a Captain at 23 as well and a line check airman soon after. If it weren't for age 65 you'd see those ages dialed back 5 years.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
We all don't have high paying government jobs out of college. You have to do what you have to do. You learn a lot making $12,000 as a CFI.
You can amplify anything out 40-50 years. That stick of gum cost your $12.87 in 2055. OK great. I used to do that too.
Guys hired a year or two before me will make a couple hundred k more over their careers than I will. My buddy hired at a legacy at 28, will make another $1 mil if not more over his career over me. What's the compound interest on that?