Prospective, but hesitant ATP student

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tpowell91

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Yet another ATP thread. I've read some other threads, but I'm hoping I can have a stream of consciousness here and get some thoughts on my unique situation. I'm about to sell my soul and future to ATP and Sallie Mae. No college degree, but have certificates. I'm at zero hours (on paper) but have experience in ultralights, gliders, 152s and 172s. Hell, I've even flown RC airplanes and microsoft sims. My short term 'plan' is to do the 6 month program, work as a cfi, then transfer my college credits to get a business degree at university here once I qualify for in state tuition (12 months). My end goal is to fly the shiny jets, corporate or charter. I would prefer not to fly airlines, but I'll take anything that pays me to fly. I realize plans change, so be gentle.

I read here http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/does-anyone-know-a-good-place-to-build-hours-fast.132728/

and here http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/does-anyone-here-recommended-atp-flight-school.132791/

I realize ATP is a pilot mill.
I want to do the 6 month fasttrack program. I went in and looked at their fleet and had conversations with the CFIs and other students. Besides the classroom buildings being kinda shabby, it left a good impression.
I am 23 with zero attachments, besides 2 vehicles and a motorcycle. I live 4 miles away from the airport I'll be training at.

I realize the "guaranteed" cfi job is not guaranteed, its really just an interview. The manager of ATP in Vegas did tell me that I would have a high chance of being able to CFI there for them.

I realize the pilot shortage is a myth, I'm okay with making <$25k to start. I would prefer to avoid regionals, but I will take whatever opportunity I can get.

Water is my plan B. I quit a drinking water treatment plant recently but can always fall back when I'm furloughed. I have $12k to my name, a supportive family, and $69k approved and ready to roll through Sallie Mae.

Here's where I goofed. I've already paid a non-refundable $1000 deposit. It was part of a special to lock in a current price, I had researched other flight schools and felt ATP was a good choice.
I had just moved to Las Vegas from northern CA and was a little too excited, I also switched over license/insurance/reg to Nevada.


Thanks in advance for any thoughts or fits of rage.:)
 
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What other flight schools did you research to come to the conclusion atp was the right choice? You're in Vegas now?
 
I moved to Vegas last month, but right now I'm in LA right now visiting family. Everyone in my family supports me and thinks it will be great for me, but I'm not 100% sure ATP is worth $69k. I'm scheduled to start ATP October 6th, but I'm getting nervous about pulling the trigger.

I looked into American Flyers, Elite Flight Training, Monarch Sky and a few local FBO's. ATP beat everyone on the price and the fleet.
 
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I'm not going to tell you to attend ATP or not attend ATP.

What I AM going to do is suggest you look at a loan calculator and get a sense of the amortization schedule and interest on that loan.

Then...set up a projected earnings plan...do a best-case, worst-case and middle-case scenario where you move from job to job over the next 5-10 years.

For those jobs, take the average salaries and run them through a Paycheck Calculator (paychex.com has a good one)

See what you will need to earn to live with the ability to save for retirement while still servicing that loan.

If the math makes sense to you, then go for it! If it does not, consider alternatives to a $70K loan, keeping in mind that the interest on this is not tax-deductible like it is on interest paid for student loans to accredited universities.

Only you know what's right for you...just pick your course with open, informed eyes.
 
skypilot6 said:
What ever you do, DO NOT GET A SALLIE MAE LOAN, I REPEAT DO NOT GET A SALLIE MAE LOAN.

They are the devil, explore all other financing options.
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I get that vibe from them, and I've learned in my short life that the devil is in the details. But are deals with the devil really that bad? I've already been denied multiple times through Wells Fargo, and they are no saints themselves.

What other options do I have? I have already exhausted my Pell grant in college. Any scholarships I found were school specific, nothing for ATP. Wonder why?

jtrain609 said:
I wouldn't start down this career path without a plan to get an undergraduate degree in addition to flight training.
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Should I take care of that first? My plan is to get a bachelor's degree in business at UNLV I qualify for in-state tuition.

killbilly said:
I'm not going to tell you to attend ATP or not attend ATP.

What I AM going to do is suggest you look at a loan calculator and get a sense of the amortization schedule and interest on that loan.

Then...set up a projected earnings plan...do a best-case, worst-case and middle-case scenario where you move from job to job over the next 5-10 years.

For those jobs, take the average salaries and run them through a Paycheck Calculator (paychex.com has a good one)

See what you will need to earn to live with the ability to save for retirement while still servicing that loan.

If the math makes sense to you, then go for it! If it does not, consider alternatives to a $70K loan, keeping in mind that the interest on this is not tax-deductible like it is on interest paid for student loans to accredited universities.

Only you know what's right for you...just pick your course with open, informed eyes.
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Will do, thanks!
 
tpowell91 said:
I get that vibe from them, and I've learned in my short life that the devil is in the details. But are deals with the devil really that bad? I've already been denied multiple times through Wells Fargo, and they are no saints themselves.

What other options do I have? I have already exhausted my Pell grant in college. Any scholarships I found were school specific, nothing for ATP. Wonder why?
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I would ask ATP what other options they have, When I went in 2008 they had a BofA, SME, and Wachovia (WF) options, I went with BofA which is managed thru American Education Services, Have had ZERO problems with them. I took out a small SME loan ~$8500. Variable rate, between something like 3.5% and 10.25% I paid on the loan during the LOWEST rates in history and still paid 10.25% they wouldn't budge on the rate. When the loan went into repayment, no notification from them. No Bill, No Email, Nothing till I was 2 months late and starting getting some very harassing phone calls from them. When I paid off the loan I tried to do it over the phone and they wanted to charge me a $19.95 convenience fee! Thats just a few of the issues I had with them, My Fiance, Sister, cousins, fellow ATP classmates, and friends have all had negative experiences with Sallie Mae. Others have not YMMV, I will never do business with them again.
 
You seem to have your head screwed on very well. Seems like you are very educated about your decision. The only input I have is that it pays off is you stick to it. There is nothing like flying for a living. Best of luck. Keep us posted.
 
skypilot6 said:
I would ask ATP what other options they have, When I went in 2008 they had a BofA, SME, and Wachovia (WF) options, I went with BofA which is managed thru American Education Services, Have had ZERO problems with them. I took out a small SME loan ~$8500. Variable rate, between something like 3.5% and 10.25% I paid on the loan during the LOWEST rates in history and still paid 10.25% they wouldn't budge on the rate. When the loan went into repayment, no notification from them. No Bill, No Email, Nothing till I was 2 months late and starting getting some very harassing phone calls from them. When I paid off the loan I tried to do it over the phone and they wanted to charge me a $19.95 convenience fee! Thats just a few of the issues I had with them, My Fiance, Sister, cousins, fellow ATP classmates, and friends have all had negative experiences with Sallie Mae. Others have not YMMV, I will never do business with them again.
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Ouch. I'm expecting 15 years around 6-7%, realistically paying $580-700/mo. Spokesman from ATP told me the other loan options will have shorter terms, lower rates, and no deferment.

AAPalmTree said:
You seem to have your head screwed on very well. Seems like you are very educated about your decision. The only input I have is that it pays off is you stick to it. There is nothing like flying for a living. Best of luck. Keep us posted.
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Thanks, my head does a great job of keeping my hat on my head. :D I didn't come here to get sugarcoated, but positive feedback is nice. I'm just having irrational fears that pilots are going to be automated or ATP will take the money and run, leaving me broke and out on my ass having to pay a huge loan.:tinfoil:
 
tpowell91 said:
Ouch. I'm expecting 15 years around 6-7%, realistically paying $580-700/mo. Spokesman from ATP told me the other loan options will have shorter terms, lower rates, and no deferment.
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A 10-year note at $69,000 principal on 7% interest is 120 payments at $801.15 a month, according to Bankrate's calculator.

The total amount you will pay over 10 years is $96,138 at that payment/amortization schedule.

If you go 6% and 15 years it's a $582 a month payment and comes out to $104,806 over 15 years.
 
killbilly said:
A 10-year note at $69,000 principal on 7% interest is 120 payments at $801.15 a month, according to Bankrate's calculator.

The total amount you will pay over 10 years is $96,138 at that payment/amortization schedule.

If you go 6% and 15 years it's a $582 a month payment and comes out to $104,806 over 15 years.
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That sounds do-able. I'm okay with paying more in the long run if it means I can live a little more comfortably. Crushing debt is, well, crushing debt. Might as well be a little more comfortable, right? Money isn't super important to me as long as I have enough to eat, sleep and entertain a few hobbies.
Whether or not that is a 'good deal' in this economic climate is up to debate. While I don't want to live in a van down by the river, I can survive on $300-400/month.
 
I know this thread reeks of "I'M GONNA BE A PILOT AND NOTHING CAN STOP ME", so I would like to thank everyone who took the time to reply. I will be checking back here periodically.
 
tpowell91 said:
I moved to Vegas last month, but right now I'm in LA right now visiting family. Everyone in my family supports me and thinks it will be great for me, but I'm not 100% sure ATP is worth $69k. I'm scheduled to start ATP October 6th, but I'm getting nervous about pulling the trigger.

I looked into American Flyers, Elite Flight Training, Monarch Sky and a few local FBO's. ATP beat everyone on the price and the fleet.
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I used to work at Monarch Sky and did a lot of my training there. The owner is a dbag but its a good operation. Id recommend anything over ATP. The thing with the Vegas ATP is its primarily used for folks looking to get their CFI and its out of VGT which totally sucks. HND is a much better place to fly out of. Boulder City is even better than VGT but its always friggin windy and the power lines are close to the runways. You can haggle with Monarch on pricing.

Seriously though. Whats the rush? The regional industry is a slow motion train wreck right now. The odds are you will never pay off big ATP debt. I nearly did the ATP thing, then I crunched the numbers, with the help of a few people on this website and it certainly was not doable. Hell, I know a few people who went to ATP and then decided "nahhhhh
 
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SeanD said:
I used to work at Monarch Sky and did a lot of my training there. The owner is a dbag but its a good operation. Id recommend anything over ATP. The thing with the Vegas ATP is its primarily used for folks looking to get their CFI and its out of VGT which totally sucks. HND is a much better place to fly out of. Boulder City is even better than VGT but its always friggin windy and the power lines are close to the runways. You can haggle with Monarch on pricing.

Seriously though. Whats the rush? The regional industry is a slow motion train wreck right now. The odds are you will never pay off big ATP debt. I nearly did the ATP thing, then I crunched the numbers, with the help of a few people on this website and it certainly was not doable. Hell, I know a few people who went to ATP and then decided "nahhhhh
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Can you give me specific reasons why you don't like ATP and VGT? I like how its towered. I want to learn how to fly in strong winds and crab landings. Other than that I don't know too much about the airport.
 
tpowell91 said:
Should I take care of that first? My plan is to get a bachelor's degree in business at UNLV I qualify for in-state tuition.
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How do I say this...

Attending a brick and mortar undergraduate program, which is something I think everybody should do, is not for the faint of heart. Working while attending school is no joke, and having the schedule necessary to both attend classes and work in aviation is challenging at best. Trust me, I've done it, and it wasn't exactly easy.

Additionally, while I understand the desire to finish your flight training as soon as possible, there are certain benefits extended to those who do their flight training through a university program and are thus able to take our federal student loans for that training. Specifically, the repayment terms cannot possibly be beat by any private lender.

Tl;dr, you should likely do a little more research into this before pulling the trigger. Personally, I'm sitting under a mountain of student loan debt from law school, but the payments are manageable on first year pay at a regional because my payments are calculated as a percentage of my income.
 
tpowell91 said:
Can you give me specific reasons why you don't like ATP and VGT? I like how its towered. I want to learn how to fly in strong winds and crab landings. Other than that I don't know too much about the airport.
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That tower is more of a liability than any any CTAF I've dealt with. The controllers there are both inept and rude, which is a winning combination.
 
Here's an honest question....what percentage of pilots at ATP finish on time and on budget? I took tours of a couple of big schools a few years back (TransPac, Aviator, and Aerosim) and asked them the same question. Most danced around the question, but in the end, far less than half seem to finish on time and on budget.

I know it will depend on the particular student and their circumstances, but I would imagine that it would also be less than half.
 
I'm okay with making <$25k to start.
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I can almost guarantee that once you have rent, utility, insurance, gas, groceries, cell phone, and a big Sallie Mae bill coming in the mail, you won't be.

I just joined the regional world and I prepared myself financially, knowing what first year pay will be like, and I still shake my head when my paycheck comes in. I couldn't imagine doing this paycheck to paycheck.

I'll add, check with local (reputable) flight schools. No, you probably won't get it done in 6 months like ATP, but I'll bet you save a BUNCH of money. Many places will let you put money on account, and give you discounts on rental rates. On top of that, you'll get to meet local pilots who might hook you up with some time in cool airplanes.
 
AAPalmTree said:
You seem to have your head screwed on very well. Seems like you are very educated about your decision. The only input I have is that it pays off is you stick to it. There is nothing like flying for a living. Best of luck. Keep us posted.
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This. Only you know what is best for you. Avoid debt at all costs. It took me quite a bit longer to get all of my ratings but thanks to the advice I got here on JC I was able to do it debt free....I did however miss a small hiring wave in 2011 and seniority is everything (at least in the 121 world) and was meanwhile extremely frustrated working a desk job while pursuing my ratings. I'm much happier now that I'm flying for a living and sometimes wonder how things would be different had I taken a loan to get done faster... So everything is at a cost. YMMV. Overall, the no debt was the best choice though. Owe nothing to anyone, it's a great thing.

Fwiw, I did most of my training elsewhere but went to ATP at VGT for my CFI certificates when they had a stand alone program for that. The decision to immerse myself for those ratings was a good choice for me, but it wasn't the place for me for all of my training. Go with your gut. You know the best answer. Good luck in whatever you choose. Keep us posted.
 
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