Prospective, but hesitant ATP student

  • Thread starter Thread starter tpowell91
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There is no reason you can't go part 61, save money, and get it all done within a year. It will be up to you to concentrate, build time, etc. YOu could probably save yourself 20-30k doing it this way, if you are reasonably creative. After you get your private, you can time build any day you can't get an instructor. You can get good rates if you buy 50 at a time on an airplane, and fly it a off quickly.
 
tpowell91 said:
Can you give me specific reasons why you don't like ATP and VGT? I like how its towered. I want to learn how to fly in strong winds and crab landings. Other than that I don't know too much about the airport.
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Exactly what Jtrain said. The place is like an angry Walmart parking lot on a Saturday afternoon. Its a terrible place to flight train IMO and a sketchy place to taxi around in. It is nearly at the top of the list for plane to plane incursions. HND is controlled by a great group of folks and not nearly as busy. Vegas is general, is windy, so you will get plenty of x wind landings and take offs.
 
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As you said you have 12 k to your name and are looking at a 70 k loan. That's not smart when you're looking at maybe 25k/yr for the first year or two.

Look at other options.
 
You guys are so right it hurts.:aghast::bang: Did I mention I already put $1000 down to ATP?
 
Take a very close look at the training and refund policy if you end up going. While I don't believe ATP will vanish, if you don't finish the program the refund process is insane.

$475/hr for Seminole, $200 for 172, $150 for the FTD and $75 for ground from what I remember.

Things can get ugly.

I heard from a friend they recently gave the CFI's a small raise. Word is so many were defaulting on loans causing banks to cease funding new students for a period last summer.
 
I would highly recommend staying out of debt if you can. Yes it will take you longer, especially if you don't make any connections, but it will keep your options open as debt ties you down.
 
I'm with Bandit_Driver 110%. But only if the plan is to eat breathe and sleep flying. Aaaand you find a CFII willing to instruct in a personal plane.

Going that route I figure it'll take about 20K in gas and instruction costs to 300 hours which would hopefully get you your CFI. If you negotiate a fresh annual on purchase and fly as much as you would at ATP you're only in it maintenance wise for oil changes and hopefully a couple grand in incidental maintenance. Worst case scenario, you're stuck with having to do an annual/IFR cert your self and figure 5K for a nightmare annual and you're in at 30K to CFI before purchase price adding in tie down fees and the odd quart of oil here and there. Find a decent IFR certified 172 for 39K and you're at bare minimum ATP prices. Figure you price the Skyhawk to sell ASAP when you're done and even then you'll get 25K back minimum.

Keep in mind my numbers are based in experience owning and flying 10 years ago, but there is a significant savings to be realized as older airplanes hold their value. I had a 1966 C-150F with dated gauges, one VOR, a flip flop COM mid time engine and about 7/10 interior and paint. I bought it in 2002 for 16K and that same airplane today would sell for the same price (if not more). Add 300 or so hours to the engine and you'll be looking at a loss on sale for 1 to 2 grand, but no more.

If you decide to go that route I'd ask around to find the best A&P (mechanic) in your area (that doesn't regularly work on the target aircraft). Go speak with them and ask them what to look for TBO, SMOH, TT, etc and get them to do a thorough pre buy inspection on any prospective aircraft. I'd even stipulate in any agreement that the buy comes with a fresh annual inspection, you'll pay for the inspection using your guy and the seller pays for parts and labor on any corrective actions. Having a second opinion will pay dividends down the road.

The last thing is, it'd be a training aircraft. You don't need a fancy panel mounted GPS, the paint doesn't need to be perfect and you don't need the kind of seats you'd see in a Mercedes. Don't let any of that sway you. Will it fit the training mission is number one, resale value 300 or whatever number of hours down the road is number two. Your ideal plane is a mechanically and avionically sound relic from the 70's or 80's with faded paint and an ADF.
 
tpowell91 said:
Can you give me specific reasons why you don't like ATP and VGT? I like how its towered. I want to learn how to fly in strong winds and crab landings. Other than that I don't know too much about the airport.
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You'll learn that anyway, no matter where you are - you will eventually hit winds that are at the demonstrated crosswind component of whatever trainer you are flying.
 
genot said:
I'm with Bandit_Driver 110%. But only if the plan is to eat breathe and sleep flying. Aaaand you find a CFII willing to instruct in a personal plane.

Going that route I figure it'll take about 20K in gas and instruction costs to 300 hours which would hopefully get you your CFI. If you negotiate a fresh annual on purchase and fly as much as you would at ATP you're only in it maintenance wise for oil changes and hopefully a couple grand in incidental maintenance. Worst case scenario, you're stuck with having to do an annual/IFR cert your self and figure 5K for a nightmare annual and you're in at 30K to CFI before purchase price adding in tie down fees and the odd quart of oil here and there. Find a decent IFR certified 172 for 39K and you're at bare minimum ATP prices. Figure you price the Skyhawk to sell ASAP when you're done and even then you'll get 25K back minimum.

Keep in mind my numbers are based in experience owning and flying 10 years ago, but there is a significant savings to be realized as older airplanes hold their value. I had a 1966 C-150F with dated gauges, one VOR, a flip flop COM mid time engine and about 7/10 interior and paint. I bought it in 2002 for 16K and that same airplane today would sell for the same price (if not more). Add 300 or so hours to the engine and you'll be looking at a loss on sale for 1 to 2 grand, but no more.

If you decide to go that route I'd ask around to find the best A&P (mechanic) in your area (that doesn't regularly work on the target aircraft). Go speak with them and ask them what to look for TBO, SMOH, TT, etc and get them to do a thorough pre buy inspection on any prospective aircraft. I'd even stipulate in any agreement that the buy comes with a fresh annual inspection, you'll pay for the inspection using your guy and the seller pays for parts and labor on any corrective actions. Having a second opinion will pay dividends down the road.

The last thing is, it'd be a training aircraft. You don't need a fancy panel mounted GPS, the paint doesn't need to be perfect and you don't need the kind of seats you'd see in a Mercedes. Don't let any of that sway you. Will it fit the training mission is number one, resale value 300 or whatever number of hours down the road is number two. Your ideal plane is a mechanically and avionically sound relic from the 70's or 80's with faded paint and an ADF.
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I thought I was done here, but there's not a "100% Super Most Awesome Like Forever" button on the website.

Here's a couple other thoughts for you:

1) If you're worried about the $1000 you plunked down, think of it as a $1000 bullet dodged. The best lessons in life are the most expensive ones. I can say this with one divorce behind me and some other INCREDIBLE dumbass moves I made when I was 23. You are being much, much smarter than I was back then by asking these kinds of questions.

2) Consider getting your PPL first, fly some XC flights (that's cross-country) and make sure that you actually like sitting in an airplane for hours at a time.

If I was going to go do it again (and I'd been more informed) I would have done exactly what @genot and @Bandit_Driver suggest above. Buying a $40K airplane sounds really expensive, but you have to realize that it's an opportunity cost and you really can get a huge chunk of that money back. Yes, there is risk, but it's manageable risk. This is a really, really good idea. Aircraft loans are significantly longer-termed than car loans, and because the airplane is a secured asset, your interest rates are lower. Also easier to get a co-signer if you need it.

Hope you consider this option.
 
I still want to know what the $1000 down was for? Please for the love of God don't tell me it was done as a good faith gesture to ATP. If you wanna go, then go, but listen, that VGT location sucks and looks nothing like the fancy brochure or their website. You'll hear this A LOT "Sorry, planes broke. Hopefully sometime this week. We'll let yah know, k?"
 
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I'm 100% positive if you take that $70k and invest it in a porn studio you would come out way ahead.

Since you likely won't heed my advice; don't be afraid of the regionals. They make great aviators.

Also, if you have student loans your budget will be more like 16k per year.
 
My plan definitely is to eat breathe and sleep flying. The $1000 to ATP was to reserve my seat at the current price before it went up $5000. Kicking myself in the head for that.

Bandit_Driver said:
Sell the bike or car
consider buying an older IFR C-172M,N, or P model
find a CFII willing to instruct you it
Fly the doors off it
Sell when you get done with training
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This sounds feasible. What about MEI though?

jtrain609 said:
Check it out, man. We're all gonna be in Vegas in a few weeks. Grab a ticket to the event (link is at the top of the website), come on out and you can get the straight dope on this career, training, etc. It'll cost you the ticket, gas, and a hangover.
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I might just have to do this.
 
All I have to say, living and having done my training in so cal is that 70,000 for training sounds great to me if that got you all the way to CFI,CFII, MEI. For me the problem with ATP is the devil in the details as you say. You start factoring in things like: examiner fees
Checkride bust fees
Retraining costs (up the rectum)
Paying for your ticket to standardization (to fly a semen hole)
Working as an operator instead of flying until they call your number to instruct.
Then of course, the massive cost of the loan. Everyone always talks about the debt that you'd have making only 22k at a regional. To me, that's almost the good news. At least that's guaranteed and it gets better. For me, the worst part was being a CFI and not knowing what the heck I was gonna make.

Not trying to discourage you. I love my job. Just don't want you to get into debt and feel like some kinda sky slave. Slowerish and steady wins this race. Good luck!
 
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