Props rule

wheelsup said:
It's funny, I never seem to remember any major carrier's pilots pissing on another's lower wages, generally they look to the highest paid company and complain themselves about not being as well paid.
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I was talking about this earlier this morning.

What is it? You don't see B767Driver, Fo4ever, MDpilot and I fighting like cats and dogs but some (not all!) of the regional FO's are always trolling for a fight.

Way more FOs than captains.

For every 1 captain exclaiming "Mesa is the FUX0RZ!!111", there might be 10 to 15 FO's.

What's WITH that?!

Can someone enlighten me?
 
When mainline pilots complain about pay, as far as I see things ya'll are splitting hairs.

"Oh no, we make $176 on the 777 where company B makes $178 on the 777," but you're not going to lose your house over it.

When a regional pilot takes aim at another regional, you're talking about making so little money that you're talking about the difference between being able to eat or not. Like let's look at the difference in second year pay between my company and Pinnacle:

Us: $34 an hour
9E: $24 an hour

So by the time I get to second year pay, I can afford to stock away from cash every month and not have to worry as much about how I'm going to eat next month. The Pinnacle pilot on the other hand, is making in his second year what I made first year at my company.

When my contract opens up in 2010, do you think my company is going to say, "You did such a great job, let's up your pay!" Or do you think they'll say, "You know Pinnacle pilots are flying much larger aircraft for much less money, why in the world should we pay you more with all the cut backs we're getting from our mainline partners?"

Further, it affects you guys. #### rolls up hill in this industry, and I think the regional guys with a head on their shoulders can see that the problems that are happening now at the regional level WILL affect mainline scales in the end. These guys want a career, and get pissy that there are folks out there that seem hell bent on destroying any and all bargaining power that we may have.
 
jtrain609 said:
When my contract opens up in 2010, do you think my company is going to say, "You did such a great job, let's up your pay!"
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The flip side of this is why should they raise your pay? If pinnacle or any other union company has lower rates and pilots are working there I see no reason for other companies to pay more...do you? Unless you earn it of course. But we're pilots, we don't like to earn our pay :D.
 
I thiiiiiiink you may have missed my point, Train, but that's alright! I'm a flyer and not a writer! ;)

More simply put, it seems like the average regional FO is far more likely to pull out out a proverbial switchblade on the internet than a lot of other people.
 
Personally I think it's because of immaturity more than anything else. You don't see 30 somethings bagging on others, mostly it's the under 20's to mid-20's crowd.

That, and with no money they don't have any hobbies or life, so complaining on the internet is the next best thing.
 
Doug Taylor said:
I thiiiiiiink you may have missed my point, Train, but that's alright! I'm a flyer and not a writer! ;)

More simply put, it seems like the average regional FO is far more likely to pull out out a proverbial switchblade on the internet than a lot of other people.
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Regional FOs have much more to lose with an industry downturn. Thus, the natural "fight or flight" response comes in, whether it be denial or calling out others, etc.

They don't teach you that stuff in 767 ground school? :)
 
wheelsup said:
Personally I think it's because of immaturity more than anything else. You don't see 30 somethings bagging on others, mostly it's the under 20's to mid-20's crowd.

That, and with no money they don't have any hobbies or life, so complaining on the internet is the next best thing.
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Heyy I am 16 and I aint complaining, bassically what is happening in the Major's/Regionals has nothing to do with me. I am just taking life as it comes and pushing along with training until the day I do decide to go up to that pedestal. When I do get there however I probably (being that I am not Ms, Cleo) won't be baggin on other pilots because well how that person got from A to B I have no idea, I do know how I got to where I am and need to make the best of it.
 
Regional FO's have nothing to lose with an industry downturn. They'd make more selling girl scout cookies. If a mainline pilot gets furloughed he/she loses much more in potential income.

Look at the last industry downturn. Mainline shrunk while the majority of regionals underwent explosive growth. $200k jobs were traded for $60k jobs.
 
jtrain609 said:
When mainline pilots complain about pay, as far as I see things ya'll are splitting hairs.

"Oh no, we make $176 on the 777 where company B makes $178 on the 777," but you're not going to lose your house over it.

When a regional pilot takes aim at another regional, you're talking about making so little money that you're talking about the difference between being able to eat or not. Like let's look at the difference in second year pay between my company and Pinnacle:

Us: $34 an hour
9E: $24 an hour

So by the time I get to second year pay, I can afford to stock away from cash every month and not have to worry as much about how I'm going to eat next month. The Pinnacle pilot on the other hand, is making in his second year what I made first year at my company.

When my contract opens up in 2010, do you think my company is going to say, "You did such a great job, let's up your pay!" Or do you think they'll say, "You know Pinnacle pilots are flying much larger aircraft for much less money, why in the world should we pay you more with all the cut backs we're getting from our mainline partners?"

Further, it affects you guys. #### rolls up hill in this industry, and I think the regional guys with a head on their shoulders can see that the problems that are happening now at the regional level WILL affect mainline scales in the end. These guys want a career, and get pissy that there are folks out there that seem hell bent on destroying any and all bargaining power that we may have.
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Excellent post!
 
Doug Taylor said:
More simply put, it seems like the average regional FO is far more likely to pull out out a proverbial switchblade on the internet than a lot of other people.
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The reason for this is simple: the average regional FO is living in near-poverty conditions. They struggle simply to have enough money to eat and pay rent. So when somebody else comes along and says "I'll do it for $3 less," the guy already living in poverty gets pretty pissed off, and rightfully so. It's different at the mainline level, because even after 40% paycuts, most guys are still making six-figure incomes. Big difference from wondering whether you can afford that next meal of Raman noddles because the guy at the next regional is trying to win the next RFP bid by taking less money.

I think it's a good thing, BTW. The more militant and pissed off the new generation of pilots is, the better chance we'll have of winning back our profession. Too many pilots have become far too comfortable and aren't willing to fight for anything.
 
PCL_128 said:
The reason for this is simple: the average regional FO is living in near-poverty conditions. They struggle simply to have enough money to eat and pay rent. So when somebody else comes along and says "I'll do it for $3 less," the guy already living in poverty gets pretty pissed off, and rightfully so. It's different at the mainline level, because even after 40% paycuts, most guys are still making six-figure incomes. Big difference from wondering whether you can afford that next meal of Raman noddles because the guy at the next regional is trying to win the next RFP bid by taking less money.

I think it's a good thing, BTW. The more militant and pissed off the new generation of pilots is, the better chance we'll have of winning back our profession. Too many pilots have become far too comfortable and aren't willing to fight for anything.
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Not arguing the validity of your post, however, I still don't think it answers Doug's question....so I'll give it a whack:

I think Doug is stating that guys at the majors don't seem to break out the petty "My plane/airline/uniform/contract/flight attendants/life/schlong/chest hair .... is better than YOUR (insert your choice here)...." like a number of the regional pilots on here do.

We (and I'm speaking generally for regional pilots) seem too intent on either slamming another regional (for whatever reason) or another pilot for CHOOSING another regional....when, in the end, we're all just trying to make it to the next step = a major/legacy.

It's like watching seagulls fight over what they believe is a crumb, but is actually a rock. Meaning: It's pointless.

It gets nobody anywhere. It makes us (again, general "us" in regards to regional pilots) look rediculous, immature and frankly - sad.

But, I'm just an old guy, so what do I know? :hiya:
 
PNCL-

Don't get me wrong, I certainly understand and appreciate the utility of being charged up and ready to improve things, but I think of it like a hot dog.

What's the difference between a delicious hot dog and a meat tube of ground up lips, bladders, snouts and eyeballs?

Marketing.

The problem that our industry is having is that we're engrossed in "my carrier is better than yours", "you suck", etc than we are trying to work together to find solutions to our professions problems.

When the pendulum swings from passionate education to caustic pissing matches, the people that most need to hear the underlying message completely tune out.
 
JDMcFly said:
A Hebrew National?
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kosher_nonkosher.gif


Delicious forequarter!
 
Doug Taylor said:
The problem that our industry is having is that we're engrossed in "my carrier is better than yours", "you suck", etc than we are trying to work together to find solutions to our professions problems.
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I'm with ya, Dough. That's why I spent so much time as a rep building good relationships with the other MECs, both regional and major. Everyone needs to be working together. But that being said, I do understand why so many regional FOs are bitter and attacking each other. When you can't afford rent on $28/hr, and some dude comes along at another regional to do it for $20/hr, then it's hard to think rationally and not get pissed off. It's just human nature.
 
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