Props rule

Seggy

Well-Known Member
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap_travel/2...renaissance;_ylt=AqJ_yI0AMl9o3zVZx3UhJRKs0NUE

BRUSSELS, Belgium - As fuel prices soar to record highs and airlines struggle to maintain profitability, the unglamorous but fuel-efficient turboprop regional airliner is making a remarkable comeback.

The revival of the propeller-driven planes — which typically consume a quarter to a third less fuel than equivalent jets — marks a significant new trend in the industry. Until recently, many commuter airlines had been determined to consign the planes to history and convert to all-jet fleets which offer greater passenger comfort. Although the latest generation of turboprops has addressed some of the comfort issues by flying above turbulence and providing quieter cabins, analysts say the airlines' money worries about their bottom line now outweigh any passenger preferences.

With jet fuel prices 60 percent to 70 percent higher than a year ago, regional jets no longer offer good economics for short-haul flights, said Michael Dyment, an aviation analyst at Nexa Capital Partners, a Washington, D.C., corporate finance group.
"Nowadays, operating efficiency trumps any passenger considerations," Dyment said. The world's remaining manufacturers of turboprops for commuter airlines, Canada's Bombardier and France's ATR, have ramped up production to 140 of the planes this year, after making 100 deliveries in 2007. This compares with only 26 in 2002. "There has been a clear reversal of trends in the regional airline business over the past three to four years," said Richard Maslem, an editor of Airliner World, a British trade magazine. "Airlines that only a short time ago were championing the cause for the regional jet and suggesting the end of the line for turboprop models are now having to eat their words."

The regional sector as a whole experienced something of a boom, with traffic growth estimated at almost 8 percent in 2007, ranging from 3.1 percent in the United States to more than 9 percent in China. While jets such as the Embraer E-series still topped the delivery list, the upsurge was led by turboprops, which accumulated 210 orders from clients worldwide. The 1950s-era Fokker 27 was typical of the first generation of short-haul airliners with gas turbine engines driving propellers, which acquired a reputation for fuel economy and ruggedness. Passengers, however, hated the propeller noise, vibrating cabins and susceptibility to turbulence at low altitudes. As the next generation was entering service in the 1980s, many feeder airlines favored speedier and quieter 30- to 70-seat jets, such as those produced by Brazil's Embraer. This sparked predictions that they would eventually replace the turboprops. By the beginning of the millennium, several turboprop manufacturers — including Fokker and Saab — had either declared bankruptcy or abandoned production of turboprops, leaving Bombardier ATR as the only major turboprop manufacturer.
But tight economic times have revived demand for the propeller craft over the past couple of years. A recent report by the market research firm Forecast International attributed this to the need by regional airlines to cut costs and reduce fares in the face of competition from low-fare carriers. Jet fuel now averages $3.70 a gallon in the United States — nearly double the price a year ago. Local airlines, which generally are run on very slim margins, already routinely resort to fuel-saving measures such as taxiing out on a single engine and coasting to landings by idling the engines.

With market interest growing, Bombardier is evaluating lengthening its existing 78-seat Q-400 to 90 seats, and its French rival is considering launching a totally new aircraft rather than extend its existing 70-seat ATR-72. The new models would also have advanced noise and vibration suppression systems and would fly at higher cruising altitudes than their forerunners, offering in-flight comfort levels comparable to jets. The stakes are high for both companies, because analysts predict a requirement of nearly 1,500 regional aircraft from 2007 through 2016 to keep up with projected demand.


"What has happened with new-generation turboprops is on short flights and with a smaller capacity they can open up or sustain markets that jets cannot. So you get the best of both worlds — comfort for passengers and financial viability for the airline operator because of the 30 percent lower per seat costs," said John Strickland, director of JLS Consulting, a London-based aviation consultancy firm. Strickland also pointed to the widening use of turboprops among partner subsidiaries of such companies as Lufthansa, Alaska Air, Air France and Quantas, where they feed traffic to the carriers' jet routes.
Luxembourg's airline Luxair typifies the turnaround.

In 2000, the carrier decided to discontinue the turboprop fleet it had operated since the 1950s and replace it with commuter jets. But as fuel prices skyrocketed, the airline turned to the more economical propeller models, and placed orders in 2006 for a fleet of new Q-400s.

Among other orders in recent weeks:

• Seattle-based Horizon Air, a subsidiary of Alaska Air Group Inc., ordered 15 of the Q-400 turboprops from Bombardier, with options for 20 more, in a deal worth nearly $400 million.
• SAS, the joint flag carrier of Sweden, Norway and Denmark, reversed its decision to discard its fleet of Q-400s after a series of landing gear incidents. Instead, it reached a compensation agreement with the planemaker that included orders for 27 new aircraft of an improved model with options for 24 more — a potential value of $1.75 billion.

Pretty straight forward article. Looks like that Q400 type will open a ton of opportunities for me down the road if needed. Hopefully, the demand for oil will go down.
 
Just write 'quote' in brackets and paste what you want and then write '/quote' in brackets at the end of it.
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap_travel/2...renaissance;_ylt=AqJ_yI0AMl9o3zVZx3UhJRKs0NUE

(How do I quote article texts in posts? If someone can do that I would appreciate it)

Pretty straight forward article. Looks like that Q400 type will open a ton of opportunities for me down the road if needed. Hopefully, the demand for oil will go down.


Too bad you're making a full $15/hour less than others flying the same equipment (Lynx, the Colgan of the west, doesn't count either) but it'll probably "open up a ton of opportunities for you"!

Huzzah!
 
Just write 'quote' in brackets and paste what you want and then write '/quote' in brackets at the end of it.

Exactly. It will look like this, but without the spaces by the brackets:

[ quote ]
blah blah blah blah....blah
[ /qiote ]
 
Too bad you're making a full $15/hour less than others flying the same equipment, but it'll probably "open up a ton of opportunities for you"!

Huzzah!

I know. Not to much I can say there or excuses I can make for myself except that if I didn't go to the 'Q' I would be out of a flying job once Colgan gets rid of the Beeches.

Also I tried to make it better to have negotiating power. I didn't see you at any of our organizing events, so I guess our pay rates don't matter that much to you.
 
I know. Not to much I can say there or excuses I can make for myself except that if I didn't go to the 'Q' I would be out of a flying job once Colgan gets rid of the Beeches.

And that would be a bad thing why? Look, I know you tried to make it better, but your pilot group demonstrated that they have no desire to raise the bar in fear of losing the highly desired "quick upgrade". There would be nothing sweeter than see that majority be thrown back on the street.

Also I tried to make it better to have negotiating power. I didn't see you at any of our organizing events, so I guess our pay rates don't matter that much to you.

I didn't realize it was my job to make YOUR job better. You clearly must not have done a good enough job on your own so I guess I can see how you'd try to blame outsiders. Besides, I didn't exactly have the coin to be flying across country at the time (and no pass bennies to boot).

But please continue to enjoy your growth at the expense of the pilot groups that actually were able to make a difference.
 
And that would be a bad thing why? Look, I know you tried to make it better, but your pilot group demonstrated that they have no desire to raise the bar in fear of losing the highly desired "quick upgrade". There would be nothing sweeter than see that majority be thrown back on the street.

So you are saying once they get rid of the Beeches I start collecting unemployment, start at the bottom of a seniority list, and go back to first year pay because they get rid of my equipment?

I know you are grouped and 'stereotyped' based on actions of a pilot group. However, January 16th 2007 I was a Beech 1900 First Officer. I didn't have a choice if my company was bought. It was and I have dealt with it in the way I feel I should.


I didn't realize it was my job to make YOUR job better. You clearly must not have done a good enough job on your own so I guess I can see how you'd try to blame outsiders. Besides, I didn't exactly have the coin to be flying across country at the time (and no pass bennies to boot).

But please continue to enjoy your growth at the expense of the pilot groups that actually were able to make a difference.

I am so glad that you are Monday Morning Quarterbacking my actions when you have never met me, never saw what I was trying to do, or never saw me talk to anyone about the benefits of what I believe we should be apart of.

We are all in this together Chris. Like it or not. You have a commitment to educate guys at my company when they are asking for a jumpseat, deadheading, etc what is best for this profession. We ALL have to do a better job out there.
 
So you are saying once they get rid of the Beeches I start collecting unemployment, start at the bottom of a seniority list, and go back to first year pay because they get rid of my equipment?

So you're saying that the Colgan Beech pilots are going to be fired rather than moved to the Saab or Q400? If that's true, it's ridiculous and even more of a reason your pathetic scum sucking company needs a union.

I know you are grouped and 'stereotyped' based on actions of a pilot group. However, January 16th 2007 I was a Beech 1900 First Officer. I didn't have a choice if my company was bought. It was and I have dealt with it in the way I feel I should.

You should've never gone to Colgan in the first place. To be honest, you must have some great Kool-Aid drinkers there because you don't get the negative PR that mesa and lakes get, and I'd rather work at both of those places over Colgan.

I am so glad that you are Monday Morning Quarterbacking my actions when you have never met me, never saw what I was trying to do, or never saw me talk to anyone about the benefits of what I believe we should be apart of.


call the wahhhhhhmbulance. You were the one MMQBing MY actions, not the other way around. But again, keep enjoying the quick upgrade and growth at the expense of your fellow hardworking (moreso than Colgan pilots for sure!) pilots.
 
We are all in this together Chris. Like it or not. You have a commitment to educate guys at my company when they are asking for a jumpseat, deadheading, etc what is best for this profession. We ALL have to do a better job out there.

You edited this part in so I'll respond to it as well.

No, I have no such commitment. It is a commitment of the individual to determine what is best for themselves, and in turn, the industry. Pushing my beliefs (ala you, PCL or Velocipede) is much the same as some radical Christian pushing their religion upon you. It's unnecessary. Sure, if they ask my opinion, I'll give it to them, but you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Hope you're enjoying the quick upgrade and growth!!111
 
So you're saying that the Colgan Beech pilots are going to be fired rather than moved to the Saab or Q400? If that's true, it's ridiculous and even more of a reason your pathetic scum sucking company needs a union.

No. They are really not giving us a choice. It is either Q400 or Saab.


You should've never gone to Colgan in the first place. To be honest, you must have some great Kool-Aid drinkers there because you don't get the negative PR that mesa and lakes get, and I'd rather work at both of those places over Colgan.

Should've, could've, would've. It was the first place that gave me a chance. I wasn't educated at that time about the importance of somethings other airlines have. I look to the future not the past.




call the wahhhhhhmbulance. You were the one MMQBing MY actions, not the other way around. But again, keep enjoying the quick upgrade and growth at the expense of your fellow hardworking (moreso than Colgan pilots for sure!) pilots.

Like I said earlier...

We are all in this together Chris. Like it or not. You have a commitment to educate guys at my company when they are asking for a jumpseat, deadheading, etc what is best for this profession. We ALL have to do a better job out there.
 
No, I have no such commitment. It is a commitment of the individual to determine what is best for themselves, and in turn, the industry. Pushing my beliefs (ala you, PCL or Velocipede) is much the same as some radical Christian pushing their religion upon you. It's unnecessary. Sure, if they ask my opinion, I'll give it to them, but you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Then why did we have guys and gals from Alaska to United at our organizing events answering questions that our pilots had? If we stand together in our commitments to the profession, we are going to get a lot farther than groups doing their own thing.
 
Well anyway, the Q type will probably help you out in the future if Asian countries decide to buy them. If you're willing to go over there you can make some pretty good coin.

Why you keep responding to him though boggles my mind. Is it really worth your time?

If you're ever in ORF (I see a Colgan Q all the time down here) shoot me a PM, I live about 20 mins from the airport.
 
Don't bother Segs.....Chris has shown, on many occasions, that he is in this for himself. Nothing else matters to him....except, HIM.

Thanks for playing Chris! Your opinion really hurts. :sarcasm: :rolleyes:

Like it or not, we are all in this business together. It's EVERYONE'S responsibility to educate others around you. Go ahead and keep looking out for yourself, I'm certain nothing anyone else says will change your view of the industry and our obligations to educate.

Don't worry, I'm sure if you get the boot from XJT, Mesa would love to have you.
 
Why you keep responding to him though boggles my mind. Is it really worth your time?

True

When I am bored in MDT on an overnight watching Oprah it gives me something to do. Today is one of those days.

If you're ever in ORF (I see a Colgan Q all the time down here) shoot me a PM, I live about 20 mins from the airport.


Will do! I won't be on the Q till June but will keep that in mind!
 
Don't bother Segs.....Chris has shown, on many occasions, that he is in this for himself. Nothing else matters to him....except, HIM.

Thanks for playing Chris! Your opinion really hurts. :sarcasm: :rolleyes:

Excuse me? I called out Colgan pilots for being selfish and that is somehow ME being selfish? You Colgan guys are about as smart as everyone thinks.

Like it or not, we are all in this business together. It's EVERYONE'S responsibility to educate others around you. Go ahead and keep looking out for yourself, I'm certain nothing anyone else says will change your view of the industry and our obligations to educate.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Colgan has been led to the water time and time again and they just don't want to drink, so I'm done with the horse. I hope it becomes glue or dog food.


Don't worry, I'm sure if you get the boot from XJT, Mesa would love to have you.

Colgan is lucky to have a guy like you. What a class act.
 
Excuse me? I called out Colgan pilots for being selfish and that is somehow ME being selfish? You Colgan guys are about as smart as everyone thinks.



You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Colgan has been led to the water time and time again and they just don't want to drink, so I'm done with the horse. I hope it becomes glue or dog food.




Colgan is lucky to have a guy like you. What a class act.

Just sharing the love right back at ya. You just got done telling Seggy how he should just give up and good riddance to him. In your opinion, we should all start out at the bottom of a list somewhere else.....well, same was said of you.

For the record, I hope you don't get the boot.....despite your incessant arrogance. ;)

XJT seems like a great company and I have many friends there. I hope everything works out for all of you....for the good of the industry. You have a good relation w/ mgmt, good work rules, good pay. Once we get the whole PNCL/ Colgan mess straightened out....w/ a contract, hopefully we can use your contract as a guide for ours.
 
That's the difference. XJT is a GOOD airline, Colgan is a cesspool. Look, I feel bad for the 49% but the MAJORITY of your company wants nothing to do with bettering the industry, and what's good for the goose is good for the gander, right, 51%ers?
 
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