Pro course now $36,000
- Thread starter S.T.Aviator
- Start date
armyveteran2006
New Member
No, I am not paid to represent Ari Ben here at JC.
However, I am providing information for people who choose to use it. Information I wish I would have been able to access in Feb. 2006 when I started on this journey into the aviation industry.
Florida_Flyer
Well-Known Member
SteveC is right. I'll try and be a little bit more specific in my posts in the future. The first ones I made about a year ago were VERY specific and earned me a $5000 reward on my head. I guess this is a vendetta but I also want to help potential students make informed choices. I'll provide some wisdom learned the hard way a little later, but I'm too busy at present to do this.
As for you armyveteran2006, I hope you are a genuine guy out to help other vets and not in it for what you can get. It's not my faith in Aviator, that I'm questioning now but my faith in humanity. You have to understand how it looks. After all the controversy over the past few weeks you suddenly decide to register and rapidly start posting. You have made several posts that read like WW2 recruiting poster campaigns. In fact this seems to be your only kind of post. They follow the current agenda of Aviators management exactly. The list of questions you ask is very similar to what Mike Cohen, told me I should ask other schools when I first spoke to him about the Aviator. Also, you keep talking about doing your duty and sacrifice for your country every other line. Most vets I know did do their duty, took the risks and made the sacrifices; difference between you and them is that they did not constantly mention it every other sentence. Also I don't like the way you are trying to discredit me by riding on a 9/11 ticket. That is what the slimiest politicians do.
As for the issue of "payment for posting". I will say this. Payment for posting does not just have to be in the form of cash, it can take other forms. For example if the school is offering the "juiciest" student to prospective CFI's who use this website to "recruit" new students. The "juiciest" students happen to be the Pro Course and VA guys. If you are a regular MEI candidate and know someone who is being offered this deal remember this. These people are taking away students that you have earned by completing the course. That VA or Pro Course guy could have been yours but they are not. Not because they are a better CFI than you but because you are a better person than them. Call them what you like, just don't call them your friends.
As for you armyveteran2006, I hope you are a genuine guy out to help other vets and not in it for what you can get. It's not my faith in Aviator, that I'm questioning now but my faith in humanity. You have to understand how it looks. After all the controversy over the past few weeks you suddenly decide to register and rapidly start posting. You have made several posts that read like WW2 recruiting poster campaigns. In fact this seems to be your only kind of post. They follow the current agenda of Aviators management exactly. The list of questions you ask is very similar to what Mike Cohen, told me I should ask other schools when I first spoke to him about the Aviator. Also, you keep talking about doing your duty and sacrifice for your country every other line. Most vets I know did do their duty, took the risks and made the sacrifices; difference between you and them is that they did not constantly mention it every other sentence. Also I don't like the way you are trying to discredit me by riding on a 9/11 ticket. That is what the slimiest politicians do.
As for the issue of "payment for posting". I will say this. Payment for posting does not just have to be in the form of cash, it can take other forms. For example if the school is offering the "juiciest" student to prospective CFI's who use this website to "recruit" new students. The "juiciest" students happen to be the Pro Course and VA guys. If you are a regular MEI candidate and know someone who is being offered this deal remember this. These people are taking away students that you have earned by completing the course. That VA or Pro Course guy could have been yours but they are not. Not because they are a better CFI than you but because you are a better person than them. Call them what you like, just don't call them your friends.
Adam2006
Well-Known Member
My Deja-vu was reading 2 posts by Armyvet that were almost identical.
As far as ppls credibility on forums, for me it takes time. I have made no judgements about Armyvet, except he is new.
greaper007
Well-Known Member
I'm just curious, who is ArmyVet? Also, I'm going to go out on a limb here and disagree with both Florida Flyer and Army Vet. Aviator is what it is, I went through and I'm an Instructor now. I think I got an ok deal as a student. There are things that I like and dislike about Aviator. I'm not going to air these things on an open forum though.
The thing with Aviator is that it's so fricking cheap that it couldn't be run without some operational problems. The planes were made during the Carter administration, so yeah they break sometimes. When I was flying brand new 172s I didn't even know what a rough running mag was, now I can deal with all sorts of problems. Sometimes I wish I wasn't dealing with some of these problems. Then again my Dad tells me stories about fan blades on 737s that he can't believe are airworthy(but they are).
So FF, aviator isn't the devil of the aviation industry, that would probably be Gulfstream or JetU. ArmyVet it's also not god's gift to aviation, rather that would be me. It's a cheap school with a lot of multi-time.
The thing with Aviator is that it's so fricking cheap that it couldn't be run without some operational problems. The planes were made during the Carter administration, so yeah they break sometimes. When I was flying brand new 172s I didn't even know what a rough running mag was, now I can deal with all sorts of problems. Sometimes I wish I wasn't dealing with some of these problems. Then again my Dad tells me stories about fan blades on 737s that he can't believe are airworthy(but they are).
So FF, aviator isn't the devil of the aviation industry, that would probably be Gulfstream or JetU. ArmyVet it's also not god's gift to aviation, rather that would be me. It's a cheap school with a lot of multi-time.
CarolinaAviator1984
New Member
although i try to disagree with the racist liberal above as much as possible (hahaha kidding) i am going to have to agree :yeahthat:
greaper007
Well-Known Member
Racist liberal... all I said was there wasn't anywhere to get a good corned beef sandwich within a hundred miles.
greaper007
Well-Known Member
No but you should have been there. I said that with such a large Jewish population you'd think there would be some decent deli's around. I think we've had this conversation before my hebrew friend.
armyveteran2006
New Member
Greaper007,
I agree that aviator is not god’s gift to aviation. I also agree that aviator is an inexpensive alternative to other large schools. I feel the planes are safe but, they are definitely not new. The occasional operational problems the school has stem from trying to keep the school cost down for students who don't want to be in debt for the next 10 to 20 years. I more than willing to deal with these little inconveniences when I experienced worse at my last school.
Charles
greaper007
Well-Known Member
Whoa, I never said the planes aren't safe, just that things break on them more often than new planes. Like the rough running mag example I gave. I really don't want to relive that hangar meeting debacle from 13 months ago.
Don't fool yourself though, even after attending Aviator you're going to be in debt for the next 10-20 years. Granted, it's much less than you'll pay at a place like DCA. I'm not sure about you, but I have about $50,000 in debt from my college degree and aviator. Now, at $20,000 a year how long is that going to take to pay off? I'm hoping it only takes ten years.
Luckily my fiancé signs her checks Dr. so I might be able to get a leg up on it. However, I still don't see the proverbial light at the end of the tunnel. Flight school is almost beyond expensive. Right now my college buddies are paying on $15,000 loans and making around $40,000-$50,000. Hopefully we'll end up like my Dad and make $300,000 a year, but I really doubt it. If you have this aviation disease, Aviator is definitely the most affordable route to get your fix. I did a lot of research, and that's why I came here. I think it's why most people are here.
Florida_Flyer
Well-Known Member
How did you go $10,000 over budget without going over hours armyveteran2006? I've heard of things like that happening at some of the big schools. What went wrong?
Oh hell, we had folks going over budget all the time at the FBO I instructed at and especially at ERAU where I went to college.
Budgets are a funny thing in the flight training business because they're selling a service in a competitive field.
If you tell a potential customer "Your training costs solely depend on you, your level of motivation, the weather, etc" they're going to say, "Well, ABC across the street says I can get my private for exactly $2,563.39 there and you're saying that it's all up to me, the weather, aircraft availability matching with MY availability?" that school just lost a potential customer.
So if you create a flight training budget consistent with what the average student at the school actually does, yet again, DoogieAir across the street is going to say, "Aww, we can get ya done for $500 less than that!".
If you create a target too low and the student has a hiccup or two during flight training, then it's drama.
Unnastand?
armyveteran2006
New Member
The school charged me a wet rate for the plane ( C-172) at $160-170/hour with instructer. The price fluxuated with fuel prices.
What they did not tell me up front or on my recipt for each flight was they were charging me a fuel service charge on top of that rate. They convienently hid those small charges on my end of month statement.
So the variations in price and the extra fuel surcharges and adminstration fees over 6 months and my actual 82 (quoted 80) hours of flight training it came to just under $10,000 over budget spending a around $32,000 for my PVT and Inst. When I asked how much it would cost me to finish my ratings from COMM thru CFII not including MEI they said they could write me a new contract and "I would finish up for $40,000 more but, it would probably cost me close to $50,000 plus the $5,000 for my MEI." Thats when respectfully told them I could not afford there school and I left.
I did not like the FTD simulators there especially the PCATD. FTD cost around 130/hour and PCATD 110/hour. I paid $54/ hour for my instructor and the school turned around and paid him $10/ hour. I thought that was borderline criminal.
After ever flight they added on the standard .5 hours for breifings but, the instructor would get basically that $5 and the school would keep $22 for themselves. Now ADD that to the 60 flights I had and right there you have almost $1700 over budget(60* 27).
I would have ended up spending almost $75000 with VA money but, with out living expenses for 2 years vs. the extra $18,000 I am going to spend at Aviator which I am including and the VA money living expenses.
This allows me to only be $50000 in debt which is a nice car payment every month for 5 to 6 years. Granted I will have to paythey minimumforthe first year or two. At least Iamnot trying to pay of $80,000+ at for the next 15 to 20 at $700/month.
Charles
What they did not tell me up front or on my recipt for each flight was they were charging me a fuel service charge on top of that rate. They convienently hid those small charges on my end of month statement.
So the variations in price and the extra fuel surcharges and adminstration fees over 6 months and my actual 82 (quoted 80) hours of flight training it came to just under $10,000 over budget spending a around $32,000 for my PVT and Inst. When I asked how much it would cost me to finish my ratings from COMM thru CFII not including MEI they said they could write me a new contract and "I would finish up for $40,000 more but, it would probably cost me close to $50,000 plus the $5,000 for my MEI." Thats when respectfully told them I could not afford there school and I left.
I did not like the FTD simulators there especially the PCATD. FTD cost around 130/hour and PCATD 110/hour. I paid $54/ hour for my instructor and the school turned around and paid him $10/ hour. I thought that was borderline criminal.
After ever flight they added on the standard .5 hours for breifings but, the instructor would get basically that $5 and the school would keep $22 for themselves. Now ADD that to the 60 flights I had and right there you have almost $1700 over budget(60* 27).
I would have ended up spending almost $75000 with VA money but, with out living expenses for 2 years vs. the extra $18,000 I am going to spend at Aviator which I am including and the VA money living expenses.
This allows me to only be $50000 in debt which is a nice car payment every month for 5 to 6 years. Granted I will have to paythey minimumforthe first year or two. At least Iamnot trying to pay of $80,000+ at for the next 15 to 20 at $700/month.
Charles
greaper007
Well-Known Member
Doug, I believe Charles is talking about the school in Orlando that tried to get you fired. This isn't the first time I've heard horror stories about some of these big schools. We've had several instructors and students come to our school from Pan-Am that were $90,000 in the hole without instructor ratings. One guy I know of can't even work that much as an instructor because he has to pay somewhere in the neighborhood of a thousand dollars a month in loan payments. He gets paid more to do line duty. It's pretty sad.
Florida_Flyer
Well-Known Member
So they used the "connection" to try and get Doug, fired huh. Scumbags! A few of the ex Pan Scam, guys told me about the massive budget busts and the lies. The worst schools seem to be the big "name" academies at the premium end of the market. I guess they think if mom and dad can afford 60k, then another 40k shouldn't be a problem. I will say this about the Aviator, at least the hours they quote on are realistic. Sure, there were some guys that went way over hours but that was because they were....... The time in months they are quoting should be realistic too if they could get the stage checks and MEI running smoother. Problem is that Aviator, is not competing with the big academies. ATP is the main competition and they can get you done in minimum hours and months.
armyveteran2006
New Member
Doug and FF,
You both have excellent points. In reality each individual gets out what they put in to there education. I know people who went to ATP that finished there private in 30 days and had to do time building for part 61 and could not get a instructor to fly with them becuase it was in a single-engine. This caused almost a 3 week delay for the person.
On the other hand if it were me, I would have been in someone's office the 3rd day of this and would not have let it gone on for that long. My favorite quote at my last school when I inquired about my delays for maintenence issues "10-12 months is extremely fast what are only a few extra weeks" At $1200 a month in living expenses this aggrivated me greatly. I also liked the fact we had scheduled blocks of time that were not long enough to complete lessons so I had to repeat them because of their scheduling errors. Again "it is only an extra .2 on the hobbs its really not that significant" It all adds up though.
I visited ATP before I choose Aviator I thought as VA guy I feel got the better deal by my choice.
At the end of the day it is all up to the student and hard they are willing to work.
Charles
You both have excellent points. In reality each individual gets out what they put in to there education. I know people who went to ATP that finished there private in 30 days and had to do time building for part 61 and could not get a instructor to fly with them becuase it was in a single-engine. This caused almost a 3 week delay for the person.
On the other hand if it were me, I would have been in someone's office the 3rd day of this and would not have let it gone on for that long. My favorite quote at my last school when I inquired about my delays for maintenence issues "10-12 months is extremely fast what are only a few extra weeks" At $1200 a month in living expenses this aggrivated me greatly. I also liked the fact we had scheduled blocks of time that were not long enough to complete lessons so I had to repeat them because of their scheduling errors. Again "it is only an extra .2 on the hobbs its really not that significant" It all adds up though.
I visited ATP before I choose Aviator I thought as VA guy I feel got the better deal by my choice.
At the end of the day it is all up to the student and hard they are willing to work.
Charles
Florida_Flyer
Well-Known Member
Yes you made the right choice going to Aviator as a VA guy. A better bet than your last choice for sure. ATP don't accept the VA benefits so that would have been a bad deal. I think your going to need to be more patient with the MEI though, that causes more problems than the rest of the training put together. The guys who do best seem to be the ones that accept it will take a while and there will be frustrations. The ones that struggle most are the guys who think they'll be an MEI a month after their commercial. Who is doing MEI ground and flying with the MEI candidates at the moment?
armyveteran2006
New Member
Becoming an instructor is a difficult task. You have to understand the material thoroughly to teach. I don't want to be a instructor who goes through the motions. I actually want to be able to teach more than the requirments eventhough I know this will take quite a bit longer I think it will be worth it in the end.
Charles
Charles