Pro course now $36,000

It's easy to discredit a nameless person on the Internet I did it to you and was partially wrong. I wanted my name to be known not so much to put him on the run but may be so he would evaluate the flaws of the school.
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Yes, Gonzo, of course that's correct. I think plenty of school outsiders thought that what I was saying was a total fantasy and that I had fabricated it all. The "good news" posts by the likes of Kaliuaboy, and Catherine are what potential customers want to believe. Even when, as in Catherine's case they are just a loaded sales pitch and highly unethical. But, as I say, letting them know my true identity was not an option. Maybe with two of us playing a similar tune people are taking notice.

Every problem at the school boils down to one of five people(no names).
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If I came up with a list of who the problem people are and the specific problems, I'm sure it would look just like yours. I think EVERYONE at the school, except those people know the nature of the problems. But, it's not possible to say anything because of the delicate egos involved and getting that instructing job after the course means those egos must be massaged. I don't like the idea of naming and shaming people on a public forum but I'm tempted, I truly am. What makes it worse is that my problems were the same ones my instructor had and he told me his instructor had. Generations of Aviators, all having to put up with the same BS. Will things change? I'm not optimistic. Mike has one performance measure; sales. Customer satisfaction? That ain't one of them. Only when sales suffer will Mike, (possibly) take notice. Mike has been concentrating on the sale way too long; now it's time he concentrated on generating some good will along the way.
 
Gonzo said:
I say yes because a lot of what you said was correct. It's quite frustrating as a former student to see a school that in my opinion as the best multi-engine training aircraft, some of the best instructors I've seen(all but two but we won't name names), and a great location the airport has ten approaches can be bogged down with such mismanagement. Every problem at the school boils down to one of five people(no names). Most of these problems cannot be seen from a tour of the school and unfortunately by the time you're there and realize the scope of these problems your already under contract or as Catherine said in an earlier post to financially and emotionally invested in the school to leave. I think the most frustrating part about the school is most of the problems could be fixed at zero financial cost. The problem is the cost of People's egos and pride is too great for any of them to take. Until the problems are fixed I cannot recommend anyone to go to the aviator.
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Can you please elaborate on the positives of the school? Particulary, the condition of the fleet. Also, could you elaborate on the "massaging" of the management?
 
intern_mike said:
Can you please elaborate on the positives of the schoo?
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As I mentioned earlier the instructors for the most part are some fantastic people and good instructors. You make good contacts and you will be able to handle any emergency situation.
intern_mike said:
Particulary, the condition of the fleet.?
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This is has been covered in detail here: http://forums.jetcareers.com/showthread.php?t=32966


intern_mike said:
Also, could you elaborate on the "massaging" of the management?
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??????
 
Part of the 36k deal with the Pro Course is that you get to work for them after you have completed the course. Try questioning a member of management why they are always hours late; why they have an urn on their desk with "ashes of problem students" written on it or maybe why your personal mail has to be delivered to the school, not where you are living and your chances of working for the school would not improve.

Students and instructors just kiss a$$ or at least avoid talking about the real problems. Don't tell the truth, whatever you do. It's the only way to get the CFI job and keep it. This is how the Aviator has got away with being so badly managed and why things may never change.
 
Back in my day, schools didn't promise you a job. You went to a school, got your rating/time/experience, and then went out and played the field. Maybe you'd get a job at your school, maybe not, but this whole idea that "you pay me X and you'll get a job in the end", simply allows for CFI's to be taken advantage of and for quality at a school to suffer.

Those of you who feel the Aviator is treating you wrong should simply walk away and look for something else. If you're so tied in that you can't leave, for whatever reasons, or that you feel you have no options, then you have seriously messed up and given too much power to management. It works the same way with these direct track programs. You have 300 hours and you're a RJ F/O, you aren't going anywhere....you best just do what you're told, and act like you like it.
 
DE727UPS said:
Those of you who feel the Aviator is treating you wrong should simply walk away and look for something else. If you're so tied in that you can't leave, for whatever reasons, or that you feel you have no options, then you have seriously messed up and given too much power to management.
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Unfortunately it's just not as easy as walking away. Between the contract that will cost you a lot of money to break and management intimidation(threatening future employment).
 
I had the "if you don't like it, LEAVE" line thrown at me plenty of times. When you have so much time, money and effort invested it's just not that simple.

What if UPS treated you like Aviator treats it's people DE727UPS? You'd run to your union, as you should. What if there was no union and all you got was that line "if you don't like it, LEAVE." You'd have to run away like a coward or find another way to stand and fight. JC, Mike Cohen's shop window is a great place to make a stand.
 
Back in my day, we never had "contracts" or paid huge sums upfront for flight training. Doing that just opens the door for abuse.

For what it's worth, I'm in the process of setting up a twin timebuilding operation. I won't be asking for anything upfront.
 
Back in my day, we never had "contracts" or paid huge sums upfront for flight training. Doing that just opens the door for abuse.
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18 months go I'd have said you don't know the **** you're talking about. Today, I can see you're right.
 
Florida_Flyer said:
I had the "if you don't like it, LEAVE" line thrown at me plenty of times. When you have so much time, money and effort invested it's just not that simple.
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Actually, it is that easy. You've built time, hours, and experience. I could care less about the negative nuances of management when the goal is what matters most. . .which applies to any school, FBO, or organization that provide training.


Florida_Flyer said:
What if UPS treated you like Aviator treats it's people DE727UPS? You'd run to your union, as you should. What if there was no union and all you got was that line "if you don't like it, LEAVE." You'd have to run away like a coward or find another way to stand and fight. JC, Mike Cohen's shop window is a great place to make a stand.
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FYI - UPS is a job. . .a real job. It's not a short term stint to achieve a certificate or two. Are you advocating unions for FBOs for short term CFIs and students going through a program? No, I didn't think so either.

But I suppose my direct question is if poor management is attributed to the cost increase? Is that what I'm understanding?
 
Florida_Flyer said:
Part of the 36k deal with the Pro Course is that you get to work for them after you have completed the course. Try questioning a member of management why they are always hours late; why they have an urn on their desk with "ashes of problem students" written on it or maybe why your personal mail has to be delivered to the school, not where you are living and your chances of working for the school would not improve.

Students and instructors just kiss a$$ or at least avoid talking about the real problems. Don't tell the truth, whatever you do. It's the only way to get the CFI job and keep it. This is how the Aviator has got away with being so badly managed and why things may never change.
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I don’t understand you people. NO school guaranties you a job as an instructor! They may guaranty you an interview to become an instructor. Do airlines guaranty you a job before your interview or before you pass your standardization classes? I know plenty of CFI’s at the big schools that did not get hired after there training. Manly because of personal things they did at the school.

Imagine you are a company owner. Now you have customers who you are providing a service and training to and they are being trained by former customers who now work for the company. In order to make your business work you have to insure that your current employees have to be able to train customers to a level consistent to train new customers. You also need employees to succeed in being hired to airlines and to set a good reputation for your company and all your employees who are following in there foot steps.

Now I know we are talking about money so emotion gets involved but, the truth is that sometimes you have to bite the bullet grow up and do the right thing whether it is not speeding, drinking and driving, showing up to work on time you know the responsible things in life.

If you want to ask questions ask the other big schools these following questions.
  • How many students who start here finish your program?
  • How many students that finish your program get hired by you as instructors?
  • How many students hired on as instructors finish there time with you to get there guaranteed interviews or other promises?
  • How many of your instructors get hired by each airline (specific for each)
  • Of all your instructors that get hired how many make it though there initial training with that company and actually get a line?
  • What percentage of your students finish in the timeline you advertise? I don’t want to know the fastest because it happens once out of how many?
At my last school I finished my private and instrument faster then they quoted with only 2 hours over what they quoted but, almost $10,000.00 over budget for what they quoted.
That did not include housing. If you are upset over the way you are treated there is concern there and you should let someone know who is can do something about it. You may need to grow some thicker skin also. I hope all of you are successful in your endeavors and reach your goals in the aviation industry.
 
Yes, as Adam2006, said on one of this other guys threads, it's deja-vu! But I don't know if you're thinking it's the same kind of deja-vu as I am Adam. You know what they say? If it looks like a rat, smells like a rat...... I wonder if Mike is up to his usual tricks again? I'll stop by later armyveteran2006. There are a few questions I'd like to ask you
 
Florida_Flyer said:
Yes, as Adam2006, said on one of this other guys threads, it's deja-vu! But I don't know if you're thinking it's the same kind of deja-vu as I am Adam. You know what they say? If it looks like a rat, smells like a rat...... I wonder if Mike is up to his usual tricks again? I'll stop by later armyveteran2006. There are a few questions I'd like to ask you
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I'm kind of curious if it is your plan to ever actually talk about problem areas that you think that prospective students should be aware of at the Aviator? So far all I see is a lot of general statements about mismanagement and strong arm tactics, but very little intel that people can use to judge for themselves. Instead you guys seem to spend an awful lot of time trying to cast aspersions when someone has something positive to say. That comes across as someone who is disgruntled and has a personal vendetta, rather than having the interest of the uninformed at heart.

Doug has said it before, but let me spell it out again. This website is a place for people to learn about different aspects of aviation, good, bad and indifferent. Please feel free to contribute any worthwhile information that you may have. That information might be positive, it might be negative, it might just be informational. All good. This forum is not, on the other hand, the place for you to work out any beefs that you may have with the school. If you have a personal problem with someone there, work it out on your own. Be a grownup and deal with it.

I understand that you think that Mike pulls the wool over people's eyes through the use of this website. Personally, as a disinterested observer, what I see more of is you guys trying to use this as your personal bash fest of someone that apparently you don't like very well. In my opinion it doesn't do much for your *cause*, nor for people's perception of your intentions.

Bottom line, tell people about what you like or dislike, but be specific. Give information that people can use in making decisions. Be mature.
 
Florida_Flyer said:
Yes, as Adam2006, said on one of this other guys threads, it's deja-vu! But I don't know if you're thinking it's the same kind of deja-vu as I am Adam. You know what they say? If it looks like a rat, smells like a rat...... I wonder if Mike is up to his usual tricks again? I'll stop by later armyveteran2006. There are a few questions I'd like to ask you
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Florida flyer,

You must have just seen the movie “The Departed”. Jack Nicholson says the line about the RAT well doesn’t he?

As far as discussing the problems that you so vaguely describe I am unable to do so if I have not encountered those so called problems. I can not speak about problems I have not created for myself nor problems other people have not discussed with me.

I am only a student who enjoys what I am doing and where I am presently studying. Every student or instructor, that I talked to who left other schools to come to aviator are happy here.

Now if you have real problems and can be specific maybe I can talk to people and found out how they can be fixed if those problems still exist. I can only comment on my experience which I have enjoyed thus far in my journey. I also try to look at the brighter side of life “Thanks Monty Python” or else I would focus on all the negative things and my life would be useless and miserable.

Please Florida flyer, ask me questions and I will try to answer them to the best of my ability. Do not however call me a rat sir when I have served my country proudly after SEP 11, 2001. You do not know me so do not assume you know me.
 
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