Private pilot License in a Cirrus?

Fly_Unity

Well-Known Member
ok, I have this family I work for buy a brand new GT3 SR22 Turbo Cirrus, with all the options you can get on it. I been flying them around for his business, and they paid for my training to get me CSIP certified. The owner is an older guy (60?) and he wants to get his private pilot license.

I have about 1000 hours of dual given but only in steam gauges and have some questions:

1. This plane is made to be flown with an auto pilot pretty much, Workload is a bit high to hand fly it, navigating, and doing checklist etc while hand flying it. Will an examiner want him to hand fly the entire checkride? or use the auto pilot for the majority of it?

2. As far as the cross countries, solo cross countries, and the navigation and dead reckoning on the Cirrus, Is GPS allowed? Can he enter all his way-points on the ground before taking off in the FMS? I really cant see someone navigating with a sectional chart using pilotage going about 200 knots. What do they expect to see here? Will the examiner want to see the applicant fly with a map in case of a PFD/MFD failure? or will he want to see how the applicant would do this cross country using all the avionics and resources available?

3. as part of cross countries, where this Garmin 1000 with the perspective and synthetic vision has FOD (fuel over destination) ETA, ETA, miles left to destination, Weather, wind direction and velocity, etc etc. Will the examiner still want to see him using a E6B to find this stuff out when hes on his cross country portion of his checkride? Or is this not be neccasary when he can just read it from the screen?

4. How nerve racking is it to solo a student in a high performance airplane with 320 horse power?

Any one else here have experiance teaching a private in a Cirrus, or a high performance, or glass cockpit? I just have no idea what to expect. Like I said this guy is an older guy which will take him a while to just figure out the Garmin. I want to make this as easy as I can for him. He dont ever plan to fly for himself but just wants to get his license to know how to fly. Money is no object to him, and he will take lessons as long as it takes for him to get it.

Thanks for any advice.
 

NickH

Uber Driver
1. Probably a bit of both, but mainly hand flying.

2. It's allowed at the examiners discretion, but the map will almost certainly be used for the diversion, if not the entire task. The student must know how to work it all, of course.

3. Up to the examiner, but he'll probably have to use the E6-B and then point to it on the screen.

4. It's about the same. But it will probably take more hours to get to the point where they're ready for a sign off.

I've done it in a glass 182.You have to make sure they know the basics but also know the best ways to make use of their airplanes systems. Find an examiner with a lot of G1000 experience, and the student will come back with a lot of new tricks for using the system. I found that teaching the cross country navigation was easy, as the added situational awareness from the G1000 made the flight plan easier to understand. I think the pre-solo phase took a little bit longer, but this may have been the specific student.
 

jrh

Well-Known Member
Before I answer your specific questions, I'll say this: Train everybody to standards high enough that you would feel comfortable loading your family up in the plane with this person and sending them out on a cross country trip.

If you keep that in mind, you'll never sign somebody off before they're ready and you'll sleep well at night knowing you've produced a competent pilot.

1. This plane is made to be flown with an auto pilot pretty much, Workload is a bit high to hand fly it, navigating, and doing checklist etc while hand flying it. Will an examiner want him to hand fly the entire checkride? or use the auto pilot for the majority of it?
Depends on the examiner. If I were the examiner, I'd want to see the applicant proficient at both. If the autopilot is there, there's no reason to avoid using it, but at the same time, they shouldn't lose control of the situation if the autopilot goes inop in flight.

2. As far as the cross countries, solo cross countries, and the navigation and dead reckoning on the Cirrus, Is GPS allowed?
Sure, why not?

Can he enter all his way-points on the ground before taking off in the FMS?
Sure, why not?

I really cant see someone navigating with a sectional chart using pilotage going about 200 knots.
Why not? It just means they'll need to be more proficient at it.

What do they expect to see here? Will the examiner want to see the applicant fly with a map in case of a PFD/MFD failure? or will he want to see how the applicant would do this cross country using all the avionics and resources available?
Again, depends on the examiner, but I would want to see proficiency with both. If the screens go black, what other option is there besides using a sectional? Having an MFD failure is a lousy reason to get lost or bust somebody's airspace.

3. as part of cross countries, where this Garmin 1000 with the perspective and synthetic vision has FOD (fuel over destination) ETA, ETA, miles left to destination, Weather, wind direction and velocity, etc etc. Will the examiner still want to see him using a E6B to find this stuff out when hes on his cross country portion of his checkride? Or is this not be neccasary when he can just read it from the screen?
Again, totally depends on the examiner. Personally, I would have no problem with him reading it off the screen *if* he had a very solid understanding of the concepts involved and knew how to read and estimate times from winds aloft forecasts. Basically, if he can get a good picture in his mind of how the winds will affect his flight, then uses the boxes for more precision, that would be fine. However, simply hopping in and blindly following whatever the boxes tell him would be unacceptable, IMO.

4. How nerve racking is it to solo a student in a high performance airplane with 320 horse power?
No more nerve racking than soloing somebody in a 152 if you do your job right. It doesn't matter what you're soloing people in as long as you train them until they're proficient. I don't stress at all over soloing people any more because they've proven they can handle any reasonable condition thrown at them before I let them go alone. They have to know how to handle crosswinds, recover from bounced landings, talk on the radio, handle engine failures at any point in the flight, use good judgment, etc. If they can consistently do those things, what do I have to worry about?

Granted, a bigger, faster plane might take more time to get proficient in, but that's just part of the game.

Any one else here have experiance teaching a private in a Cirrus, or a high performance, or glass cockpit? I just have no idea what to expect.
Never taught in a Cirrus, but I've taught a lot in G1000 cockpits and some low time pilots in high performance aircraft (late model 182 and 206s).

Just remember the fundamentals of teaching in any aircraft. Don't allow any situation to go beyond what you're comfortable with. If that means taking the controls, take the controls. If that means doing a go around, go around. Stay calm and be patient no matter what. Everything happens faster in high performance aircraft, so you'll need to think a little faster as an instructor.

As for the glass cockpit, it's easier than you think. Just educate yourself on it as much as possible. I've never been through CSIP training, but I know Cessna's factory training is fantastic--two and a half days of ground training and flying. Very detailed and thorough with regard to using the G1000 to the optimum while flying. You can also order a G1000 sim DVD from Garmin for $25 that allows you to play with the G1000 using any PC. Ground training in glass panel operations is worth its weight in gold. If you want to be an effective teacher, you'll have to be comfortable with the system yourself. It's not hard to learn, but don't expect to just hop in and wing it, either.

Like I said this guy is an older guy which will take him a while to just figure out the Garmin. I want to make this as easy as I can for him. He dont ever plan to fly for himself but just wants to get his license to know how to fly. Money is no object to him, and he will take lessons as long as it takes for him to get it.
As long as he understands it will take some extra time to become proficient in such a "hot" plane, go for it. If money is no object, it sounds like he understands what he's getting in to.

Just one word of caution--don't lower your standards because he doesn't ever plan to fly by himself. That fact shouldn't matter. The reality is that he'll have privileges to go do whatever he wants, so it's your responsibility to help him reach the skill level that he can fly safely as a private pilot by himself if he so chooses.


Sounds like a fun experience. If you have any other questions, ask away!
 

Itchy

Well-Known Member
Does your insurance carrier know what the plan is?

If I had enough money to afford that plane, I would have enough to rent a 172/182 for 30 hours, to knock out the rough beginning.
 

Acadia

Well-Known Member
The only hitch could be insurance. Things may have changed, but four or five years ago I had two PPL students wanting to train in nicer HP aircraft (Mirage & Columbia). In both cases insurance for the aircraft made training a new student in that airframe not cost effective, and these were people who didnt care about the money. When each person saw that the insurance premium was going to cost more than renting a nice new 172 for 50 hours, they both decided to train in the simple aircraft and then upgrade to their own aircraft once they had their licenses.

I agree with all posts above; it is not a problem to teach in these aircraft as long as you teach to proficiency. However it may or may not make good economic sense.
 

woutlaw

Well-Known Member
Keep in mind too that for training there's no need to run around at 180 knots all day long as well.

Pulling the power back to 40-50% does a nice job of turning a -22 into a 172 (ok, maybe a 182 :) ), which will help your student stay on top of the airplane. As they get more proficient you can dial up the speed.

We've done a couple of private certificates in owner SR-22s at the flight school I work for, worked out just fine. The insurance requirements were something like 50 or 75 hours of dual before they could solo, however. I think both guys had around 100 hours when they took their checkrides.
 

ILS37R

Well-Known Member
1. In my experience, examiners want pilots to use all equipment available in the aircraft. If it has autopilot, he'll not only be able to use it, he'll be expected to use it. Make sure he's proficient.

The VFR maneuvers, of course, will have to be hand-flown.

2. Yes, yes and yes. Make sure your student is capable of using pilotage, dead reckoning and radio/GPS navigation. Remember, a PPL isn't simply a license to fly that Cirrus, it also qualifies him to fly a steam gauged 152, as well. That said, as with (1) above, he needs to be competent using the equipment available in the aircraft. For a PPL, I've never known an examiner to require partial panel work (such as exists with a glass cockpit), but you might want to dim the PFD down to nothing and put the system in reversionary mode so he is used to looking across the cockpit in case of a PFD failure.

3. It's hard to say exactly what the examiner will want, but requiring the applicant to be able to calculate using a sectional and the whiz wheel is fair game. Make sure he's prepared.

4. Depends on the student, but with your hours you should know when a student is or isn't ready to solo. It's entirely possible there will be some insurance requirements along the lines of 50 hours dual-received prior to solo, so check into that. When he's ready, make sure your student has a nice, big runway to work with; those planes can eat up a lot of pavement.
 

Lee D

Well-Known Member
I've seen guys get private certificates in the SR22 and the 20. Since it is a more complex aircraft it may take more time to master than a simple 172 or Piper Archer, but it can be done. (More $$$) I would make sure they understand all the systems and ensure they can comfortably use them.

Some will depend on how easy they are to teach. When I was an instructor I met guys who were quick learning students. Those guys could have adapted well to a more complex aircraft. Other guys needed more time and simplicity before they could move into the more complex aircraft. That type might be in over their head in a Cirrus and might benefit from an easier plane before stepping up to a high performance one.
Perhaps get them through the solo in a more simple and forgiving aircraft, then step up to the Cirrus.
 

wheelsup

Well-Known Member
MAPD starts students off in a 300hp A36 Bonanza. The lowest I solo'd someone in it without prior aviation training was around 20 hours. I would say the average was around 30 hours or so prior to solo. But that was with a very detailed syllabus and detailed manuvers written and drawn out for students to memorize, as well as flows being done. Just to put it in perspective.

IMO it's probably better to rent a 172 and knock it out, then transition to the Cirrus, if you don't have much dual in one. It would be easier for you as an instructor to teach in a 172 (I assume) based upon your background in flight training and easier for the student to learn the required items. All IMO.
 

jwp_145

GhostRider in the Sky
Hey Ben,

I knew a girl here that did her PPL in an SR22. And I've heard that Nan makes people taking a checkride in a Cirrus use the autopilot for the ENTIRE flight, sans maneuvers of course.

Best thing to do would be to call the DPE you plan on using and developing a game plan with him/her.
 

CirrusMonkey

No Real Usefulness
I used to instruct in both the SR20 and SR22 and trained two PPL's in the 22. If you have any questions or need any tips, feel free to PM me.

Like others have said above, you can turn the SR22 into a 172. Have fun!
 

skydog

New Member
It would seem to me that the type of airplane doesn't matter. The choice of airplane is an economic choice. You can learn the required skills much more economically in a 172 than a Cirrus, but if the guy wants to fly a Cirrus; well, it's his money. What is important here is achieving competency vis-a-vis the practical test standards. The student has to be able to meet all of those standards regardless of the airplane. As to what the examiner would want to see, well it seems to me that he should be bound by the PTS. However, general aviaton is in a time of transition. It is going from steam gauge 172's to glass cockpits, and I would hazard a guess that examiner's are not quite ready to move to that just yet. So perhaps a conversation with the prospective examiner might be in order. If you nail him down on what he is going to want, it will 1) give you a clearer idea of what you need to teach, 2) give you talking points to use when your student resists the idea of doing some training in an older airplane 3) give you something to hold the examiner too come time for the flight test. In fact, it would be even better if both you and the student can meet with the examiner together. After all, the student is going to be paying for the examiner's time; he's got a right to be there and know what is said.
 

jwp_145

GhostRider in the Sky
Please tell me this isnt true! PLEASE!
Yes it is true, but why the concern? She wants to know that the applicant can fully manipulate the autopilot, because if not, it can kill them. By watching them fly the maneuvers she knows they can hand-fly the airplane.

But an applicant that tries to dial in an incorrect vertical speed will quickly find themselves in a stalled aircraft wondering why. I believe that is her reasoning.

Again, this is just what I've heard. She'll be downstairs later today, so I'll ask her.
 

Blip16

Well-Known Member
Yes it is true, but why the concern? She wants to know that the applicant can fully manipulate the autopilot, because if not, it can kill them. By watching them fly the maneuvers she knows they can hand-fly the airplane.

But an applicant that tries to dial in an incorrect vertical speed will quickly find themselves in a stalled aircraft wondering why. I believe that is her reasoning.

Again, this is just what I've heard. She'll be downstairs later today, so I'll ask her.
makes sense to me. a lot of the procedures in a cirrus call for autopilot usage as well. you are just flying the airplane the way it is designed and recommended to be flown.
 

ComplexHiAv8r

Well-Known Member
makes sense to me. a lot of the procedures in a cirrus call for autopilot usage as well. you are just flying the airplane the way it is designed and recommended to be flown.
Funny, in my training in an SR20 not a single procedure was this called to use the AP. First 8 hours the AP was never used. Now it was transition training, not PPL or anything. I already had my IFR.

I'm concerned with this new technology getting into GA that they bring alot of good to the table, but also the opportunity to lose actual pilot skills. Starting to sound like CSIP is doing this.
 

Blip16

Well-Known Member
Funny, in my training in an SR20 not a single procedure was this called to use the AP. First 8 hours the AP was never used. Now it was transition training, not PPL or anything. I already had my IFR.

I'm concerned with this new technology getting into GA that they bring alot of good to the table, but also the opportunity to lose actual pilot skills. Starting to sound like CSIP is doing this.
unusual attitude recovery called for turning on the AP IIRC
 

ComplexHiAv8r

Well-Known Member
unusual attitude recovery called for turning on the AP IIRC
Interesting. My POH only says this about unusal attitude.

■​
In all cases, if the aircraft enters an unusual attitude from
which recovery is not expected before ground impact,

immediate deployment of the CAPS is required.

I dont have my CSIP training manual electronic, I will have to look at it later. I actualy enjoy flying the aircraft without the AP and actually leave the MFD on the Engine page most of the time as well. I am usually flying the same routes so SA to ground is fairly common. (I really need to fly somewhere else).
 

XLR99

Well-Known Member
Tracy, I don't see training people to use all available resources as a bad thing-like I said there are times when AP is a great thing, but if you don't know how to use it, it can bite you. I also personally prefer hand flying most of the time, and like the challenge of flying with precision, but sometimes it's better to let Otto keep the rubber side down while you focus on other tasks (while still keeping an eye on Otto, of course).
Cirrus uses the philosophy that in a single pilot environment, proper AP use reduces some of the workload spikes at critical times of flight. Cirrus owners do a LOT of flying, and they use it to go places with family and friends. The more tools they have available to them, the better-provided they know how to use them properly.
I don't think the Cirrus syllabus is dumbing down pilots-it was actually developed and has evolved to help pilots transition safely into a more advanced, and typically faster, airplane than many pilots have flown before. There's a lot of stress on decison making, use of flows, and avionics/systems knowledge, but it's really up to the CFI/CSIP to fit the training to the client.
I look at the autopilot as another piece of equipment the pilot needs to know about-it's another system with its own set of limitations, procedures, etc. To be competent and proficient in the airplane, you need to know how to use it, what the failure modes are, how to disable the AP (which breakers to pull if it won't disengage), and how to use all the modes safely-including how to avoid autopilot stalls or CFIT while in a VS descent. I'm obligated to make sure you know how to use all the equipment during transition training, you're free to use or not use it as you see fit.
 

Blip16

Well-Known Member
Interesting. My POH only says this about unusal attitude.

■​
In all cases, if the aircraft enters an unusual attitude from
which recovery is not expected before ground impact,

immediate deployment of the CAPS is required.

I dont have my CSIP training manual electronic, I will have to look at it later. I actualy enjoy flying the aircraft without the AP and actually leave the MFD on the Engine page most of the time as well. I am usually flying the same routes so SA to ground is fairly common. (I really need to fly somewhere else).
maybe that was just a school thing then. because i remember being taught that from guys with CSIP (i never got it though :( ), 60 dual given, no CSIP because the school operated under one.
 
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