Possible new FAA duty time rules...

Clocks

Clocks

Well-Known Member
Posted from another forum, who copied it from another forum, and the original post is what "someone was told". So really this is just dripping with credibility :)

Nonetheless....

I had a long conversation with a member that is helping write the new FAA rules for duty, flying time etc. He said that what they are drafting is going to happen and very quickly. He said they have already heard from large numbers in Congress who are very unhappy about the Colgan accident! They want change and not tired pilots. Here is some of the things he shared with me:

1. Commuters don't have anything to worry about. They know they cannot track where people live or commute from.

2. Duty day will most likely be 12 hours. No increase from the scheduled max of 8 hrs flying time (although he said ALPA tried to get it raised to 9 hrs).

3. Like our 30/7 or 100/30 hour rule (which will probably not change) there will also be a max duty time in a 7 and 30 day period.

4. Your rest period will allow you approx 8 hours at the hotel. Your rest period will not start until you arrive at your hotel. Your duty period will be when you lobby at the hotel. Not when you arrive at the gate.

5. The 9 hr rest period will be gone. Most likely around 10 hour rest period.

6. Duty periods that start late (interfere with your normal circadian rhythm) will be more restrictive than the normal duty period.

7. Reserve blocks will probably be 12 hours. However, reserve blocks late at night might be shorter in concert with the attempt to make shorter duty periods when the duty starts later in the day.

8. Stand-up overnights will most likely be a thing of the past. The later a duty period starts, the sooner it must end.

9. They have also addressed ASAP reports and under the new laws companies could not take any disciplinary action against crews that submit the reports.

10. There is also a group addressing the Flight Attendants. You can expect their duty rules to closely mirror those of the pilots.
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I like that!!! My two biggest gripes were always the 14-16 hour duty days followed by 8 hours reduced rest leading into another 14-16 hour duty day.
 
Looks good. Obviously further evaluation of the actual language will be required, but this is a step in the right direction for all professional pilots.

I sure hope it can also be applied to our Part 135 brothers.
 
KLB said:
I don't know how true this is, but there is a rumor that says it will apply to the 135 side also.
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Good deal.

Well, I say that thinking it'll be received well by those flying in the Part 135 world.

Anyone in the 135 community concerned about how any new flight/duty regulations might affect your company's ability to use the same type of scheduling of flights? I ask this since it's my understanding that most of the freight companies operate at night, when these regulations will most likely impose their regulatory fist the hardest.
 
Night flying won't be the problem, or UPS and FedEx are going to end up going out of business.

The problem for freight companies is going to be the 15 hour duty day doing feed for companies like UPS and FedEx. You show to the airport early, maybe 6:00 a.m. and are off the ground by 7:00 a.m. with a days worth of overnight boxes from UPS or FedEx. You get to your out station 8:00 a.m. and give those boxes to the driver, who delivers those boxes.

You sit around for the rest of the day, waiting for the UPS guy to pick up the overnight boxes that you will return to the hub for sort. He shows back up to the airport at maybe 6:00 p.m. and you're out by 7:00 p.m. and maybe you're back at your base and off duty by 9:00 p.m.

You'll run exactly a 15 hour day every day, and you most likely won't ever get more than 4 hours of sleep at your out station and 4 hours of sleep at your home. If this changed, it would seemingly require a company like Amflight to double its fleet size, having guys fly to the out station, overnight, then fly back the next day and rotate runs between two pilots.

That or convince UPS/FedEx to change how they do their sorts, which isn't likely.
 
If implemented those would actually be really nice. I'm not opposed to flying 8 or 9 hours in a day, it's the duty time that kills me IMO.
 
wheelsup said:
If implemented those would actually be really nice. I'm not opposed to flying 8 or 9 hours in a day, it's the duty time that kills me IMO.
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Indeed. I would much rather do a Denver turn out of Newark and have it run 8.5 hours than do the Dulles shuttle all day long, especially when there are massive delays turning it into a 16 hour day.
 
USMCmech said:
Can you say "instant pilot shortage"?

And, you are right. The whole UPS/FedEx feeder system would have to be completely reschedualed.
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Quick question.

Do any of these companies also have their pilots flying trips between these two major sort periods? Thus adding more flight time to their duty days? If that makes sense.
 
Amflight didn't. There wasn't any more work to be done, thus no more flying.

And come to think of it, you know what we'll probably see? Day shift/evening shift. Have one guy fly to the out station and right back to base, go on rest, then another guy comes in during the evening to do the same. If that happens, flying freight is going to be like having a part time job, and I'll bet you starts to pay like it.
 
surreal1221 said:
Do any of these companies also have their pilots flying trips between these two major sort periods? Thus adding more flight time to their duty days? If that makes sense.
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95% of runs are like this. In the evening, you fly to the hub, unload, crash at the hotel. In early morning, you wake up, load up, fly back to the outstation.

This works well with a 15 hour duty day, since you only fly about an hour each way and get about 8 hours in the hotel DURING your duty day. If the FAA mandates a 12 hour duty day, then this system simply won't be workable. UPS and FedEx would have to dramaticly alter their scheduals.
 
I will guarantee this won't happen. And if it does, pilot paychecks will suffer... nothing will ever work out right or fair for the pilots.
 
And come to think of it, you know what we'll probably see? Day shift/evening shift. Have one guy fly to the out station and right back to base, go on rest, then another guy comes in during the evening to do the same. If that happens, flying freight is going to be like having a part time job, and I'll bet you starts to pay like it.
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That will kill the bigger planes (Brasilias and Saabs) If you're going to have to pay the extra pilots, then UPS will make them fly more trips. More trips mean smaller planes.
 
USMCmech said:
That will kill the bigger planes (Brasilias and Saabs) If you're going to have to pay the extra pilots, then UPS will make them fly more trips. More trips mean smaller planes.
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Maybe, except for all the places that Amflight is going right now where they already need two Metro's to get all the freight there. I doubt we'll see a 99 doing 3-4 out and backs in the morning, and then 3-4 out and backs in the evening.
 
jtrain609 said:
I doubt we'll see a 99 doing 3-4 out and backs in the morning, and then 3-4 out and backs in the evening.
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There will be some serious head scratching at UPS/FedEx HQ, but that's the way I see it going.

If you are going to pay crews, why pay 4 pilots in a Brasilia, when you have have two pilots share a Metro?
 
Clocks said:
Posted from another forum, who copied it from another forum, and the original post is what "someone was told". So really this is just dripping with credibility :)
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Pretty accurate actually.

jtrain609 said:
This would be huge if they can actually get it to happen.

HUGE.
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Yep.

wheelsup said:
If implemented those would actually be really nice. I'm not opposed to flying 8 or 9 hours in a day, it's the duty time that kills me IMO.
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Yep.

USMCmech said:
Can you say "instant pilot shortage"?
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For the airlines with longer routes it will be kinda a wash. For regionals, they will be severly short staffed. All in all though it will create a shortage.


cencal83406 said:
I will guarantee this won't happen.
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It is going to happen. A lot of forces are driving these changes.
 
USMCmech said:
Can you say "instant pilot shortage"?

And, you are right. The whole UPS/FedEx feeder system would have to be completely reschedualed.
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Instant pilot shortage to lead to a huge loss in pay. Pilots are their own worst enemies. They bitch about pay, they bitch about hours and then instead of concentrating on pay they want to limit the amount of time they work, forcing their employers to hire more which in turn forces them to pay less.
This is great.
Feeder pay is too high as it is.
 
Seggy said:
Pretty accurate actually.

.....snip....

It is going to happen. A lot of forces are driving these changes.
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:clap::clap::clap:

I'd definitely like to hear ALPA's opinion on the impact on pilot pay though. It would be unfortunate if the companies threw up their hands and instead of intelligently working within the new rules just recalled furloughed pilots and chopped all of the trips in half.

However there is more to the cost of staffing beyond the hourly pay we see. Adding additional pilots at the expense of more efficient scheduling is going to waste money under any kind of more restrictive duty time regs I assume.
 
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