Pinnacle Interviews in Jacksonville, FL

meritflyer said:
No... not in the airlines. Again... it's what the pilot group negotiates. What applies to other industries doesn't work in this one. IE: Your 600 and 2000 hour example at a regional... We had 600TT on one end of the spectrum in my indoc class, and an 8000TT on the other end. People are getting hired at CAL right now with 2500TT and no PIC Turbine... they are in class right next to an 8000TT RJ Captain and a 4500TT ex-freight dog. Same goes for Fedex, SW, UPS, etc... People are getting hired on with thousands of hours of difference in experience. For better or for worse... TT and experience doesn't lower the pay... pilots accepting concessions to their existing contracts does.
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Bob you know thats not true, pilots wouldnt have to take concessions if LOWER TIME GUYS werent willing to accept lower ones. If lower time guys dont affect wages, then how is it that 135 operations (that have higher minimums) pay better than regionals? I am only 20 yrs old, but ill be damned if my generation of airline pilots are willing to accept a job for less than they deserve.
 
cybourg12 said:
Bob you know thats not true, pilots wouldnt have to take concessions if LOWER TIME GUYS werent willing to accept lower ones. If lower time guys dont affect wages, then how is it that 135 operations (that have higher minimums) pay better than regionals? I am only 20 yrs old, but ill be damned if my generation of airline pilots are willing to accept a job for less than they deserve.
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Are the low time guys in the contract talks discussing wages? I dont think so. The freight companies pay better than regionals b/c they arent affected the same way when pax traffic changes. The freight companies dont have to cut back when consumer spending and travel is down and there is no paying customers filling their seats.

No offense cybourg but at 20 years old, I dont know how much industry or business experience you have.
 
:yeahthat:
cybourg12 said:
...the less TT an applicant has, the less the airline has to pay the new hire. Get it?
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Negative Ghostrider...RE: Negotiated contracts discussion above.
cybourg12 said:
Bob you know thats not true, pilots wouldnt have to take concessions if LOWER TIME GUYS werent willing to accept lower ones.
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Ummm... First year pilots... AKA the lower time guys you are refering to do not have a say in pay negotiations... see Kellwolfs post on that. The only decisions they make is what airline they choose to go to based on the hours, experience, freinds who can walk in resumes, etc. that they have.

If they choose to go to a lower paying airline... then that's there problem... Sometimes not even a problem, but more of a QOL issue. Again... RE: Kellwolf at PCL... lower pay than some other places he could have easily gone too... but... "Reserve, at home, on his couch, with his family..." there's a lot to that. Or it's to go to Regions or Lakes to get the PIC Turbine... QOL and Pay be damned... Remember... you are worth what you negotiate or what you choose to accept in this industry.
cybourg12 said:
I need a beer....
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Looks like you already have one! Love it! ;)

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edit:
cybourg12 said:
I am only 20 yrs old
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What??? No beer for you! ;)
 
Captain_Bob said:
:yeahthat: Negative Ghostrider...RE: Negotiated contracts discussion above.
Ummm... First year pilots... AKA the lower time guys you are refering to do not have a say in pay negotiations... see Kellwolfs post on that. The only decisions they make is what airline they choose to go to based on the hours, experience, freinds who can walk in resumes, etc. that they have.

If they choose to go to a lower paying airline... then that's there problem... Sometimes not even a problem, but more of a QOL issue. Again... RE: Kellwolf... lower pay than some other places he could have easily gone too... but... "Reserve, at home, on his couch, with his family..." there's a lot to that. Or it's to go to Regions or Lake to get the PIC Turbine... QOL and Pay be damned... Remember you are worth what you negotiate or what you choose to accept in this industry.
Looks like you already have one! Love it! ;)

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edit: What??? No beer for you! ;)
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I agree with you Bob. First year guys, low and high times are at all airlines. Guys come from the military with thousands of hours jet PIC and guys come from little FBO with 800 hours and guess what? They both make the same. Airlines dont necessarily pay on experience. They pay on seniority. That is why (I'll call them mid-timers.. 400-800 hours) pay for expensive programs to get there. I am getting the perception that airlines pay on experience which is not true and we are seeing that more and more with 250 hour type rated pilots getting a FO position, bridge programs, and other low time job acceleraters. The guy that got on with 250 hours will be a FO longer but initially will make more money than the guy that got on a year later with 1000 hours. (exhausted) ATP, RAA, and other all place guys at high paying regionals with low time and guess what?? They make the same as any other first year FO. Why? Because union leaders and guys with some seniority negotiate contracts and pay not the 20 year old FO with no experience. So regardless of your time and how you got it, when you get to an airline, you will make the same amount as your fellow FOs regardless of your training. I dont care if you are type rated in the millennium falcon and it cost you $100K.. you will still be making first year wages with the carriers you fly for which were not set by low time FOs.
 
werent the wages set low in the first place because management knew that if high time guys refused to work for the low pay that they could always find pilots with lower time (i.e. less experience) to work for less? Too much competition for the job allows the pay to drop. If you restrict the number of applicants (up the minimums) you will have a lower pool of applicants thus some airlines might improve their pay/benies to attract enough pilots to fill their needs. but what do i kno...im just a 20 yr old with little or no business experience. i do know the mavs will sweep those hated grizzles from memphis.
 
cybourg12 said:
werent the wages set low in the first place because management knew that if high time guys refused to work for the low pay that they could always find pilots with lower time (i.e. less experience) to work for less? Too much competition for the job allows the pay to drop. If you restrict the number of applicants (up the minimums) you will have a lower pool of applicants thus some airlines might improve their pay/benies to attract enough pilots to fill their needs. but what do i kno...im just a 20 yr old with little or no business experience. i do know the mavs will sweep those hated grizzles from memphis.
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The airlines have never had a problem finding pilots. Never. There has always been a supply of military and civilian pilots for them to hire. Whether it was high timers or low, they have always been able to fill the right and left seat with a "qualified" pilot. The wages are precursed by market demand and market supply and then negotiated by the ALPA. If there is a minimal amount of pilots to fly airliners, guess what? High wages. I think that pilots that work for reputable carriers such as SKYW, XJT, AWAC, and Horizon are paid well eventually. Another point to bring out it that most low timers must become regional carrier pilots to get to the majors (or freight, I know). Regional airlines know that they are not going to keep you around for years and years. They understand they are a stepping stone to the majors and compensate you as such. There is a reason minor league baseball doesnt pay what the major league does. Its an oppurtunity to advance your skills to be able to "play ball with the big boys".
 
cybourg12 said:
werent the wages set low in the first place because management knew that if high time guys refused to work for the low pay that they could always find pilots with lower time (i.e. less experience) to work for less? Too much competition for the job allows the pay to drop. If you restrict the number of applicants (up the minimums) you will have a lower pool of applicants thus some airlines might improve their pay/benies to attract enough pilots to fill their needs. but what do i kno...im just a 20 yr old with little or no business experience. i do know the mavs will sweep those hated grizzles from memphis.
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I agree on with you... about the Mavs... ;)

The rest... Seriously... please read again above how the Pay works in the airlines.

Wages were "set low" back in the day, not because of low/high time issues... but because that's what the market rate (or negotiated rate) was at the time, and most of the jobs were TurboProp, that were once thought to be ""stepping stones' to a jet and easier to fly than a jet... but that is simply not the case.

I am still in disbelief when I get on a hotel shuttle with another crew who fly's the prop's and I've just finished a two leg day worth 6-7 hours of flight time, where they have just finished 6-7 legs worth the same or less, and I'm about to have a nice 14 hour overnight, and they will have min-rest, and I (being a 2nd year FO) got paid more than the Captain of the props, and the Prop FO is talking about being senior and holding 12 days off, whereas I held 12 days off on "reserve" and now hold 15 off as a 2nd year FO... etc... Those guys worked 10 times harder than I did... and I'm enjoying life a bit better.

Where's the logic? It's in the contract... and because (as Meritflyer pointed out) there has never been a shortage of pilots... then in order to keep from being "abused" they (pilots) had to organize and negotiate better work rules and pay. If during negotiations the airline says... "No... we aren't going to pay you guys more, in fact we are going to pay you less and you'll like it, because we can get "low-timer's" and "bridge" guys for pennies on the dollar." Then who, at that moment, has the most control? A pilot group of 2000-5000 pilots who can bring the airline to a screeching halt on one strike vote... or the Airline who is using "scare tacticts" to negotiate the rate down. It's brinkmanship... it's happening now for different reasons with Delta, CAL&XJT, NW, Mesaba, ComAir, etc... Who can negotiate the best... and what will the pilots VOTE on.

We don't have 500TT guys driving down our pay and benefits... rather, we have senior guys with thousands of hours negotiating the best pay and work rules the industry will allow.

You are looking at this from a (logical) supply and demand economics viewpoint... and that arugument works well in other industries. But not in the airlines or other "union" related work environments.

Like I said... Your arguement is logical... but doesn't apply to this industry.

Bob
 
meritflyer said:
Right on Bob. This thread is very tired and needs some rest. So, if you are over 21 (
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) go drink that cold, frosty brew.
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LOL! Already did... 17 hour overnight in Indy tonight... Nice downtown! :)
 
Captain_Bob said:
LOL! Already did... 17 hour overnight in Indy tonight... Nice downtown! :)
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Then why are you here on this thread????

Get off the computer and go to town!!!!

:D
 
well atleast we agree about the mavs lol. we may differ on opinions but atleast we all agree that pilots deserve more than we are making now. best of luck to you, capt bob hopefully ill be joining the xjet ranks soon. -Matt
 
thats why JC is a great place bc unexperienced newbies to the industry like me can ask questions and learn from those far wiser than I. I understand that wages were originally set low bc regionals were thought of as "stepping stones." I guess my Qs to that would be...
1. Who decided that 20k a year for 1st year FOs was "market value" in the first place?, since when does an FO with thousands invested in training and hundreds of flight hrs become worth less on a per year salary than the burger flipper at whataburger(great place by the way)?
2. When regionals transitioned to larger equipment (ERJs/CRJs) why wasnt the pay scale increased for 1st/2nd year FOs? Isnt it common in this industry for pay to increase as the size of the equipment increases? So 70 seat drivers are making pathetic first year pay bc 20 years ago regionals determined that they had a low market value and for w/e reason the same standard applies today?
3. Is this the only industry where when oil prices increase (so the cost of all consumer products increase/cost of living increases everywhere) the cost of ticket prices stay low or just barely increase to the point where just breaking even on a flight often requires 110% load factor? so instead of passing off the high cost of operation to the consumers (like most other industries do), the hard working employees are the ones to feel the wrath while management stills gets a nice fat bonus at the end of the year?

screw flying planes....im just gonna go work for Haliburton.
 
I do have to agree with cybourg12 on some aspects. Don can vouch for this: I was a FIRM believer in the targetted low timer programs. Heck I was gung ho for MAPD, which woulda put me in a shiny CRJ with a whopping 260 hours. Now that I have the time instructing under my belt, I know I woulda been getting my butt handed to me on a daily basis. Just b/c these guys get jobs doesn't mean they are performing well. Ask some of the checkairmen at our airline here. This e-mail came out, and there are some that are thinking of dropping their checkairmen status now. They've seen it all before and thought it was over. The sad fact is, most airlines don't care who's in the seat as long as the flight is relatively on-time and the pilots don't call in sick. If they had their way, everyone would live in base, on airport reserve or have a killer immune system.

Back to the pay issue: with 500 hours, what options do these guys have? Take the low paying job with a regional that has an agreement with their school or fight trying to find one of the other jobs. Most of these guys sign up for the bridge programs NOT to better qualify themselves for a job, but to get a short cut. Plain and simple. ATP, FSI and the other schools take advantage of these people's hurry in order to cash in, and it's working. In my situation, I spent about $5K less for my three CFI ratings than I would have for MAPD's PACE program. Sure, it took my 7 months of instructing to hit the hours to qualify for a regional job, but that's money I don't have to pay back on the FO salary. Plus, with the added hours, I have something bridge guys don't: options. Let's say someone went to ATP's program and got hired in Aprial with XJT at 600 hours. Now, let's say CHQ gets those 69 planes and XJT doesn't have anything else for this person. Guess what? He's gonna get furloughed with maybe 800 TT (200 turbine) and be out on the street. Some of the other guys in his class might have had twice the time he did, so now he has to compete with them, this time WITHOUT the bridge program's help. This brings up another flaw in the bridge programs, with the turbulent state of the industry, those extra hours you get CFIing, flying jumpers, towing banners or whatever is your insurance in case you lose your job somehow. If PCL winds up furloughing due to lost flights to Compass, I still have the option of starting over again at another regional (like Skywest, ASA, or anyone else that might be hiring). The person that did the bridge program and got hired with 500 hours is out on the street with no CFI ratings, an uphill competition for the jobs out there, and a loan to pay back.

THAT was the main reason I decided against MAPD.
 
kellwolf said:
I do have to agree with cybourg12 on some aspects. Don can vouch for this: I was a FIRM believer in the targetted low timer programs. Heck I was gung ho for MAPD, which woulda put me in a shiny CRJ with a whopping 260 hours. Now that I have the time instructing under my belt, I know I woulda been getting my butt handed to me on a daily basis. Just b/c these guys get jobs doesn't mean they are performing well. Ask some of the checkairmen at our airline here. This e-mail came out, and there are some that are thinking of dropping their checkairmen status now. They've seen it all before and thought it was over. The sad fact is, most airlines don't care who's in the seat as long as the flight is relatively on-time and the pilots don't call in sick. If they had their way, everyone would live in base, on airport reserve or have a killer immune system.

Back to the pay issue: with 500 hours, what options do these guys have? Take the low paying job with a regional that has an agreement with their school or fight trying to find one of the other jobs. Most of these guys sign up for the bridge programs NOT to better qualify themselves for a job, but to get a short cut. Plain and simple. ATP, FSI and the other schools take advantage of these people's hurry in order to cash in, and it's working. In my situation, I spent about $5K less for my three CFI ratings than I would have for MAPD's PACE program. Sure, it took my 7 months of instructing to hit the hours to qualify for a regional job, but that's money I don't have to pay back on the FO salary. Plus, with the added hours, I have something bridge guys don't: options. Let's say someone went to ATP's program and got hired in Aprial with XJT at 600 hours. Now, let's say CHQ gets those 69 planes and XJT doesn't have anything else for this person. Guess what? He's gonna get furloughed with maybe 800 TT (200 turbine) and be out on the street. Some of the other guys in his class might have had twice the time he did, so now he has to compete with them, this time WITHOUT the bridge program's help. This brings up another flaw in the bridge programs, with the turbulent state of the industry, those extra hours you get CFIing, flying jumpers, towing banners or whatever is your insurance in case you lose your job somehow. If PCL winds up furloughing due to lost flights to Compass, I still have the option of starting over again at another regional (like Skywest, ASA, or anyone else that might be hiring). The person that did the bridge program and got hired with 500 hours is out on the street with no CFI ratings, an uphill competition for the jobs out there, and a loan to pay back.

THAT was the main reason I decided against MAPD.
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Kellwolf, I agree with you for the most part. I think that CFI rating needs to be a pre-req for the airlines. Whether someone wants to ad a type rating onto their certificate after they are a CFI, go for it. Being a pilot really shouldnt stop at being a CMEL/CSEL.
 
Kellwolf... you make perfect sense... IF things pan out like you say... then, and only then it makes sense. We can spend all day speculating on whether or not one company would furlough and the consequeneces to said pilot group... but we all know that it is just that... speculation.

We all play the "what if" scenario. My "What if" scenarios consisted of low-timers getting in early and avoiding a furlough due to seniority gained early on. We both make valid arguements... IF our version of the "what if" pans out.

You state that someone with 800TT and 200 SIC Turbine wouldn't have much options compared to say a 2000TT 600Turbin furloughee... Well, not necessarily. Again, playing the what if game... let's see what has happened in the past. XJT, Eagle, SKyWest, etc... (as an example) have reached out and hired (via preferential interviews) furloughed pilots without consequense of having to give up seniority at their primary airline. Other airlines have done this in the past in the past as well.

Don't knock what 121 experience can do for you... no matter what your TT.

Also... As I'm typing this, I'm realizing that you are basically argueing now that "transition" or bridge programs arent' good because it's potentially bad for the pilot (re: your low-timer furlough argument). When earlier your argument was that it was bad for the airline industry. Maybe you are now thinking it's both... If so... I'm hoping that some of my discussions have prompted you to see the guys more as people and not "industry destroyers". Thus allowing you to argue the "bad for the low-timers" scenario. ;)

Bob
 
I think that CFI rating needs to be a pre-req for the airlines. Whether someone wants to ad a type rating onto their certificate after they are a CFI, go for it. Being a pilot really shouldnt stop at being a CMEL/CSEL.
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Wouldn't you be asking everyone to be a CFI? Not everyone has the right stuff to be a CFI. That doesn't mean they cannot be good pilots. In fact, there are many experienced pilots out there that never obtained an instructor certificate; yet, they among the best in the aviation industry. I do think pilots need to gain some experience before they are entrusted with the lives of innocent souls. The requirement should be hours & experience. Notice I mention experience; the SIC needs to have good judgement and be almost as good, if not equal, to the PIC when it comes to decision making. just my two cents.
 
buffalopilot said:
How about we get rid of all these programs, hire military guys like they used to and forget it, I would rather see that!
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<cue Austin Powers voice> How about nooooo, you crazy dutch bastard!" :)
 
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