ctab5060X
Well-Known Member
The numbers I gave you are from 9E's payscale.
Yr 1 - $21 (new hire)
Yr 2 - $24
Yr 3 - $30 (furlough)
Pinnacle Corp., buys Mesaba
- Thread starter Seggy
- Start date
The numbers I gave you are from 9E's payscale.
Yr 1 - $21 (new hire)
Yr 2 - $24
Yr 3 - $30 (furlough)
higney85
Property of Scheduling
It's longevity prior to furlough. The most senior non-voluntary is less than 2 years served and still less than our most junior FO. Both groups are getting together whether anyone likes it or not. They will still have their XJ seniority which would still be valid for sli purposes.
ctab5060X
Well-Known Member
That makes a BIG difference!
Also (just curious here) but will the Mesaba guys have to go through a probation period at 9E?
Stryder
Well-Known Member
So the junior pinnacle FO's would have people under them and then when the lists are merged some of those same people will jump ahead of them? Any word on how SLI is going to play out?
on a side note how long will it be before I hear a mesaba guy say "When I was at mesaba we.... "
ctab5060X
Well-Known Member
Ugly?
You wanted a word!
From what I can tell of the lists, by date of senority alone (our initial class date and Mesaba's DOH) the Mesaba furloughs are junior to a fair chunck of the MEM reserve FOs. I bid 12th on RSV right now and it looks like they are all junior to me (again, based off of current senority date, no integration forecasted).
I think it could get very ugly very quickly if an integration put a former Mesaba furlough (who was just a new hire at 9E) ahead of pilots that have been active and on reserve for the entire time... Even uglier if the Mesaba pilot becomes a line holder and the 9E pilots are still on reserve.
BE19Pilot
Flying a Box
First of all let me extend a warm welcome to our future brothers and sisters at Mesaba to the party here at PNCL Air Holdings, Inc. It is the right thing to do offering furloughed pilots class dates here on the "Q" or SAAB before hiring off the street. However, I am not certain that I am in agreement with giving them their longevity for pay purposes. This may ruffle some feathers, but in overall fairness they are still essentially new-hires here and should start at first-year pay and at the bottom of the list. I DO agree with them having longevity apply for seniority integration purposes. I think that this whole deal is going to have a major effect upon the pilot groups of both companies. How is seniority going to be determined? Date-of-Hire? Relative Seniority? Either of these scenarios will make a big difference in how move forward. But, I have many questions that have yet to be answered about this merger.
My biggest question is what our fleet composition is going to look like in two years when the asset transfer/merger is supposed to be completed. By this time Colgan will have taken delivery of 44 Q-400 aircraft and in theory still have 34 SAAB-340B aircraft for a total of 78 airframes and another 15 on order, with deliveries scheduled to be completed late 2013 bringing the total fleet to 93 aircraft. With Mesaba retiring their SAAB fleet at 2 per month beginning in Jan. 2011. All their SAABs will be in the desert or returned to lessors by mid-2012. Pretty close to the time the asset transfer/merger will have been completed. By a rough estimate this will require a pilot group of approximately 1000 to adequately staff the airline.
Combining the Mesaba and Colgan lists in 2012 will amount to about 1,150 to 1,200 pilots which is a couple of hundred more than is required. Assuming the current rate of attrition remains the same, it seems that we will be unable to avoid furloughs down the road. AND, this assumes that PNCL will continue to operate the SAAB. A lot of flowery rhetoric has been put out by the company that they "like" the SAAB and will continue to seek additional markets/codeshare opportunities for them. This doesn't seem to jive with other statements about the company's vision for operating a fleet of exclusively CRJ-900s and Q-400s under two operating certificates and two pilot seniority lists. With the SAABs gone in the next five years that brings that pilot group down to about 650-700 pilots tops to operate a fleet of 60 Q-400s. Will their be enough seats when the music stops for everyone to have a job 5 years from now? Even if the intent is to continue to operate the SAABs for longer than the next 5 years or so...What codeshares? What markets? I think PNCL really wants to get out of the EAS/SAAB business. This what my gut is telling me, and it also tells me that I will probably be needing to get either comfortable in the right seat of the SAAB, or try to bid the junior Q-400 left-seat if the next batch goes to Newark? The Q is JUNIOR equipment here at the moment if you can believe that! All of our street Captains, except for handful are going to the Q!
This leads me to my final point where having the Mesaba furloughed pilots should be on our list. In 2011, some of them will be able to get into the left-seat of the Q because it is going to be difficult to avoid hiring street Captains. So, if this were the case I think that the crap would hit the fan if they were receiving longevity for pay on flying the "Q" in the left-seat. I know that I don't like it from a conceptual point of view, but personally I would take it in stride, because no that flies the line makes policy. And, it is very important to remember that when we interact with our fellow pilots. All three groups are ALPA members. We need to present a united front, treat one another with respect and dignity in the crewroom and the cockpit.
Lastly, it is important to remember the airline industry is going thru some tumultuous times, especially at the regional level. Traffic may be increasing, but their is still a lot of excess capacity out there. This costs the airline millions to maintain, and it is logical that the contractions experienced by the legacy carriers has begun to trickle down to the regionals. Delta is making what I see as a wise business decision by divesting themselves of their wholly-owned regionals (except Comair, which may not be long for this world either if Delta has it's way IMHO) and making them bid for the contracts to provide them lift to their hubs. I believe that PNCL Holdings has the right vision for the future, but judgement is out on whether they have bitten off more than we can all chew.
There are a lot red flags going on here that calls for all to re-focus on our duties:
1. Airline sale/merger
2. Union integration
3. Contract negotiations underway at Colgan and Pinnacle (rejected TA)
4. Company growth
5. New-Hires coming on-board
6. New cities being added
7. Merging operations/Training/Manuals/Procedures, etc...
8 ??? Probably more red flags I am missing.
Historically speaking this is a VERY dangerous time in an aviation operation be it military or civilian. Couple this with perhaps some strong emotions from certain segments of all the pilot groups, and you have one helluva interesting situation brewing!
Again, no offense intended toward the Mesaba pilots that may be joining Colgan. I hope that my rationale makes sense regarding their status until SLI takes place. There is just NO way everyone is going to be happy no matter what happens. How we all react and behave post-decision making is what is important. Having an "axe-to-grind" will serve nothing. Heck if I was a Mesaba pilot on furlough and was making a buck and able to stay in a furloughed status until the dust settles that's what I'd do.
Regards,
ex-Navy Rotorhead
My biggest question is what our fleet composition is going to look like in two years when the asset transfer/merger is supposed to be completed. By this time Colgan will have taken delivery of 44 Q-400 aircraft and in theory still have 34 SAAB-340B aircraft for a total of 78 airframes and another 15 on order, with deliveries scheduled to be completed late 2013 bringing the total fleet to 93 aircraft. With Mesaba retiring their SAAB fleet at 2 per month beginning in Jan. 2011. All their SAABs will be in the desert or returned to lessors by mid-2012. Pretty close to the time the asset transfer/merger will have been completed. By a rough estimate this will require a pilot group of approximately 1000 to adequately staff the airline.
Combining the Mesaba and Colgan lists in 2012 will amount to about 1,150 to 1,200 pilots which is a couple of hundred more than is required. Assuming the current rate of attrition remains the same, it seems that we will be unable to avoid furloughs down the road. AND, this assumes that PNCL will continue to operate the SAAB. A lot of flowery rhetoric has been put out by the company that they "like" the SAAB and will continue to seek additional markets/codeshare opportunities for them. This doesn't seem to jive with other statements about the company's vision for operating a fleet of exclusively CRJ-900s and Q-400s under two operating certificates and two pilot seniority lists. With the SAABs gone in the next five years that brings that pilot group down to about 650-700 pilots tops to operate a fleet of 60 Q-400s. Will their be enough seats when the music stops for everyone to have a job 5 years from now? Even if the intent is to continue to operate the SAABs for longer than the next 5 years or so...What codeshares? What markets? I think PNCL really wants to get out of the EAS/SAAB business. This what my gut is telling me, and it also tells me that I will probably be needing to get either comfortable in the right seat of the SAAB, or try to bid the junior Q-400 left-seat if the next batch goes to Newark? The Q is JUNIOR equipment here at the moment if you can believe that! All of our street Captains, except for handful are going to the Q!
This leads me to my final point where having the Mesaba furloughed pilots should be on our list. In 2011, some of them will be able to get into the left-seat of the Q because it is going to be difficult to avoid hiring street Captains. So, if this were the case I think that the crap would hit the fan if they were receiving longevity for pay on flying the "Q" in the left-seat. I know that I don't like it from a conceptual point of view, but personally I would take it in stride, because no that flies the line makes policy. And, it is very important to remember that when we interact with our fellow pilots. All three groups are ALPA members. We need to present a united front, treat one another with respect and dignity in the crewroom and the cockpit.
Lastly, it is important to remember the airline industry is going thru some tumultuous times, especially at the regional level. Traffic may be increasing, but their is still a lot of excess capacity out there. This costs the airline millions to maintain, and it is logical that the contractions experienced by the legacy carriers has begun to trickle down to the regionals. Delta is making what I see as a wise business decision by divesting themselves of their wholly-owned regionals (except Comair, which may not be long for this world either if Delta has it's way IMHO) and making them bid for the contracts to provide them lift to their hubs. I believe that PNCL Holdings has the right vision for the future, but judgement is out on whether they have bitten off more than we can all chew.
There are a lot red flags going on here that calls for all to re-focus on our duties:
1. Airline sale/merger
2. Union integration
3. Contract negotiations underway at Colgan and Pinnacle (rejected TA)
4. Company growth
5. New-Hires coming on-board
6. New cities being added
7. Merging operations/Training/Manuals/Procedures, etc...
8 ??? Probably more red flags I am missing.
Historically speaking this is a VERY dangerous time in an aviation operation be it military or civilian. Couple this with perhaps some strong emotions from certain segments of all the pilot groups, and you have one helluva interesting situation brewing!
Again, no offense intended toward the Mesaba pilots that may be joining Colgan. I hope that my rationale makes sense regarding their status until SLI takes place. There is just NO way everyone is going to be happy no matter what happens. How we all react and behave post-decision making is what is important. Having an "axe-to-grind" will serve nothing. Heck if I was a Mesaba pilot on furlough and was making a buck and able to stay in a furloughed status until the dust settles that's what I'd do.
Regards,
ex-Navy Rotorhead
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
I don't think they'll do probation, unless they didn't complete their probationary year at XJ. Not 100% sure, though. Ken knows the union rules much better than I do.
As for the longevity pay, it's probably the only way Pinnacle Holdings could get the guys to agree to class dates. Some might make more on unemployment than they would on year 1 pay at Colgan or 9E.....
BE19Pilot
Flying a Box
OK...I am opening mouth and inserting foot...MOU hot off the presses that Mesaba pilots on furlough will be receiving preferential hiring at Colgan Air. Any pilots hired will receive longevity for pay/benefits purposes only and no surrendering of seniority number for SLI purposes. 96 pilots for the balance of 2010 and 50 in the first quarter of 2011. Good luck guys/gals and see you around the campus...You're going to LOVE Dulles!
ctab5060X
Well-Known Member
I would really like to know for sure. I mean as of right now we are still two separate companies. It would be very, very odd for some "new hires" to be eligible to vote on a TA (not saying we are getting one anytime soon) and others who have to serve a year on probabtion not to be able to vote.
True. Glad Higney clarifed the logevity proir to furlough part. That changes things a lot than just straight longevity.
Glad to hear that we are looking at hiring about 60 pilots or so. Just might (better chance than now) be off reserve by the time winter rolls around.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Another pilot beaten into submission by management.
Don't let them intimidate you. Unless you're saying something illegal, such as advocating a job action or making libelous statements about the company, then you have nothing to worry about. Simply making derogatory statements is no reason to be afraid.
As someone who was at Pinnacle when Mesaba achieved both the original contract in '04, and took the concessions in '06, I can assure you that that is absolute BS. There were no pilots giving the XJ pilots any crap about either contract. To the contrary, we were pretty damned supportive, since there were major improvements, even in the concessionary package, which included pay raises in the snapbacks that were higher than the original book rates. Anyone who tells you that PCL pilots were giving them "crap" is practicing revisionist history.
on a side note how long will it be before I hear a mesaba guy say "When I was at mesaba we.... "
Couldn't be any worse than hearing the senior MEM Pinnacle captains always say "well, that's the way we always did it on the Saab." :banghead:
etflies
Keeping calm, Chiving on.
As far as the SLI goes, whats to protect junior Colgan pilots, i.e. new hires now that we'll be hiring furloughed XJ guys once the integration happens since they will retain their recall rights? Doesn' this more or less freeze the new hires at Colgan seniority wise? Maybe my line of thinking is all convoluted.
Stryder
Well-Known Member
Far from beaten into submission. I just know how to pick my battles.
Like I said earlier.....90% bull. Now since we officially have furloughs coming over later this month, lets all try to bury the hatchet. We've already made the press a few months ago with fighting flight attendants....lets try not to have the same with pilots.
BE19Pilot
Flying a Box
Furloughed pilots from Mesaba that come on-board Colgan Air will be retaining their seniority number, and for pay/benefits purposes they will also retain their longevity. This is per a MOU between ALPA and PNCL Corp. released yesterday. This appears on the outside as a "win-win" situation (kind of, considering the pay is lower...ALOT lower, NO work rules, NO contract and "other" issues beyond the scope of this forum.) for the Mesaba pilots. I am not a subject bmatter expert, but it doesn't appear to the dreaded staple job ala TWA/AA (Worst airline merger for labor in airline history IMHO).
The pilots that will have the most to lose are pilots at Colgan hired after the DOH of the last Mesaba furloughed pilot (mid-2007???). So, I will be waiting with a concerned eye how this plays out for us junior guys at 9L. My advice would be to get into the left-seat of anything you can before the fences, seat locks, etc...go up. For the Mesaba guys coming aboard, if you have the Total time AND depending on what kind of rules that flight standards comes up with this week you could realistically get into the "Q" left-seat when the next batch of mega-weedwhackers arrive on the property in August 2011 for an "undetermined" codeshare (UNITED/CONTINENTAL??? DEN pretty please
LAX...??? IAH??? CLE??? IAD??? Another interesting question is who is going to be the ring leaders in this new circus? I mean the music will be the same, it's just going to be a different set of players and conducters out there. Now, that is going to be a meeting I'd want to be a fly on the wall at!
Finally, I feel pretty comfortable is stating that the majority of the pilots here at Colgan are taking this pretty much in stride. For many this is there first and only airline experience and we don't know, what we don't know kind of thing. The common denominator seems to be an air of caution in what management is going to do next. I remember the first conference call after the sale when PNCL/CJC leadership stated that things will not change in the near-term (I've heard this recently too from the same people!) and funny how the 1900s started disappearing quietly, and had it not been for the mechanics in HYA we'd have hardly known that, yup your airplane is going back to Raytheon. JinxyJoe and I ferried one from Hot Springs to HYA with a stop in CRW. Paralleled a cold front just about the whole trip too! Fun times, but alas much of the fun seems to be getting squeezed out of this profession.
Regards,
ex-Navy Rotorhead
jynxyjoe
Queso King
I'll have to ask, the two captain's who were talking about it on the last two trips made it sound like it happened in the bus and in their own jumpseat.
undsioux1 said:
Eh, I think it'll be a few years before we share cockpits (except non-furloughs). More than enough time for us all to come to grips with being Pinnacles new whipping boy.
Yeah, I figured this would be the case. I just passed my initial PC in the Saab last Monday. Still waiting for the call for IOE.
Guess the only thing to do is sit tight and see what happens.
WalterSobchak
Well-Known Member
21 APR 08 is the most senior furlough.
Only thing it is going to be different about the furlough/new hires is they will be on year 2-3 pay scale. They will be at the bottom of the list now and probably when an integrated list is achieved. I think this is a good step for every one.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Guy I'm sitting next to right now would be junior to 5 of those guys on the list. Not necessarily on the "bottom" of the 9E list, but it's only a difference of about 3 months on the raises. Then again, we're not considered "employees" here until we pass the checkride, so our pay rates are determined from a different date than XJ's guys. Yet one more thing that probably is slipping through the cracks.