Pilots Loading Bags? Good or bad...

[BCTAv8r]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

There's an ASA captain I see around here every now and then that will come out and help us throw bags up the belt or help with valet bags which I kind of admire in a way. He's just out there helping in anyway he can to get his flight out on time and have a plane full of happy passengers, which might (gasp!) make 50 more people have a positive experience flying his airline. I always appreciated attitudes like his since there's a lot of guys that will just scowl at us and blame us for our company's shortcomings. I'm not saying flight crews should have to do this. And that's why I admire the ones that do it, because they choose to help out.

I understand helping out, and like you, admire people that work hard and go the extra mile. However, just from working as a line tech, I've learned how management uses this to their advantage.

There were various times that our shifts were undermanned and we'd work a bit for free after or before our shifts in order to help our buddies out killing themselves on the ramp. Management loves that stuff.

 

[derg]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

Here's the problem with a few of us in the thread.

Conventional wisdom says that you should refrain from judging until you've walked a mile in someone's moccasins.

Before I was a professional pilot, I had a particular perspective on the profession. Once I became a professional pilot -- you know, no fly no eat and I wasn't living on a relatives couch, that perspective changed.

My ideas about unions, pay rates, industry stability, the cockpit environment, yadda yadda yadda all changed when I actually started working in the profession.

There are a LOT of "moving parts" in the 121 business. It's not just going to an airplane, strapping in and blasting off, there's a lot of stuff that happens on a single leg that is difficult to describe without actually working in the field, which is why there are a number of "A Day in the Life" articles on the main page in order to help the noobies get a look at what really happens.

If you're a newbie, I highly suggest discovering the main website.

The internet is a terrible medium for communications.

I've watched private pilots try to debate someone like CalCapt on the internet, but if you met the guy in person, you'd realize that you'd better shut your mouth and open you ears and absorb all that guy has to say because he's the real deal. You know "Been there, done that, lemme tell you a story about what happened this morning..." type of guy.

I'll be straight with you guys. If you're an aspiring part 121 pilot, do yourself a favor and learn to listen better. ASK QUESTIONS because if you're anything like me, all of my perceptions about the way things should work got absolutely ROCKED and thrown out of the window when I burned my first few hundred pounds of Jet-A with paying passengers onboard.

Don't be that guy looking back years from now that writes me an email about "Hey Dough, I made an ass of myself when I was a student pilot arguing about organized labor and I'm kind of embarrassed about it, could you delete those posts?" -- I get those emails all the damned time.

Learn to listen. There's a lot of good experience here and just because you don't like an answer, or it isn't consistent with the way YOU think things work, or should work, well, welcome to the real world.

Yes, I've made fun of quite a bit of you behind the scenes about thinking that I've got the time to run downstairs and load bags during a delay or clean a 767-300 when the cabin cleaners don't arrive on time.

I would never ever EVER in a million years attempt to debate Polar about flying the 747 and freight operations because I have zero experience with either, to express an opinion about 121 flying is what we're all about, but to try to engage in continuous circular debate about 121 operations when you still have yet to spend a full day as an airline pilot?

No one wants to have to argue about the basics of the profession and there are aviation websites out there that, unless you're a verifiable professional pilot, don't want you on their website at all until you've got professional experience because they don't want to have to qualify their opinion about professional aviation to student pilots and weekend warriors.

I welcome everyone here at Jetcareers.com because we can learn from one another. If you like the interface that we share between grizzled airline captains and young neophytes that are dying to get behind the yoke, respect that and learn the fine art of learning when to shake your fists and especially when to listen.

You can't keep running experienced pilots off this board on one thread, then bitching about how you wish we had more experienced professional pilots and "OMG! Where did XXXX go?!" in another.

No I haven't been drinking, I'm just freaking dumbfounded how some of you expect to attract and keep professional pilots onboard, but continually discount their first-hand perspectives.

Me? I just finished a stack of "Air Force Today" and "Aviation Week & Space Technology" magazines so I'm going to go argue with MikeD and MDPilot about air combat maneuvers, undergraduate pilot training and the F-117A -- I think he was giving a lot of bad gouge about the performance of that aircraft.

 

[Divine Wind]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

If you do your job well, you should be rewarded. It doesn't get any simpler then that.

Theoretically correct. Kinda like when some office jockey sits in his or her air conditioned splendor and thinks up new ways to improve ramp operations without ever stepping out onto the line, into a cockpit or up to a gate to ask the front line employees what they think is best. "Well, it looked good on paper!"

I've lived under both the merit and seniority based systems for about 20 years each. Both have upsides and downsides. While it isn't perfect, I think an airline pilot union serves the interests of safety and, therefore, requires we stick with the seniority system. Most of the pilots who worked their way up through "merit system" freight dogs outfits or the smaller non-union airlines would agreed.

Currently Jet Blue and Sky West are exceptions to the rule regarding unions, they do seem to abide by the seniority system too.

 

[tonyw]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

I don't know, I was planning on loading bags next week and telling the captain that a freshly-minted private pilot said I was lazy if I didn't do so!

Here's another thing to think about. If you start doing someone else's job for them, then management may say, you know, maybe we don't need all the people who are doing that. After all, we've got other guys to pick up the slack.

Start doing someone else's job and they may very well lose it.

I don't think that even classifies as irony. Just dumbassedness.

I like that term. I'm stealing it. Dumbassedness.

As for merit based upgrades, the way I see it, pretty much all pilots qualify. What's the job description? Something like fly the plane safely to the destination, right?

Well, unless you bend metal, in which case you may not need to worry about upgrading anymore, you did your job and you did it well.

 

[derg]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

So low sick time usage (comes to work sick), 100% completion rate (doesn't write up malfunctions and leaves it to the next pilot to 'discover'), a 'team player' (in the CPO talking about other pilots), and has a lot of good letters written (pimps women with strollers and bribes gate agents with Starbucks gift certificates to write their kudos) and has great on-time performance (pulls the circuit breaker and turns the beacon on and taxies like a homesick angel) determines if I should upgrade?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

It is fairly obvious the pilots that work for the more litigious airlines on here... ATN_Pilot and kellwolf work for acouple of the worst examples.

Although it's not in my job description and I rarely have time to, if I have time, I've helped bring a couple strollers up to families with tight connections. Whoopdie doo.

Also in one example I was doing my post flight walkaround and noticed the rampers about to drop a military casket if they didn't have an extra helping hand. Morally, there is no way I could say no that. If I had gotten injured doing that (beyond the couple of splinters I picked up) and insurance didn't cover the OJI, I'll take the pay hit considering the sacrifice they gave.



The key is, typically we'd be in the way out there (just like me trying to type into PARS or Deltamatic at the gate house... I would just be getting in the way) except for a couple extenuating circumstances. It's all about teamwork and doing what you can to keep things moving. The key being "what you can."

 

[jhugz]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

It is fairly obvious the pilots that work for the more litigious airlines on here... ATN_Pilot and kellwolf work for acouple of the worst examples.

Although it's not in my job description and I rarely have time to, if I have time, I've helped bring a couple strollers up to families with tight connections. Whoopdie doo.

Also in one example I was doing my post flight walkaround and noticed the rampers about to drop a military casket if they didn't have an extra helping hand. Morally, there is no way I could say no that. If I had gotten injured doing that (beyond the couple of splinters I picked up) and insurance didn't cover the OJI, I'll take the pay hit considering the sacrifice they gave.



The key is, typically we'd be in the way out there (just like me trying to type into PARS or Deltamatic at the gate house... I would just be getting in the way) except for a couple extenuating circumstances. It's all about teamwork and doing what you can to keep things moving. The key being "what you can."

bingo

 

[surreal1221]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

bingo

Dude,

You just don't know when to stop eh?

A number of us don't have a problem bringing up a stroller or taking down a late gate checked bag down to the ramp.

The thing most of us who work(ed) in the 121 world will not do. . .is do someone else's job because our respective management teams failed at Staffing 101.

Further, throw on the OJI rates within the ramp community, and I'm not going to take my self out of work just to toss a couple over stuffed 80 lb bags into a CRJ.

 

[WacoFan]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

Me? I just finished a stack of "Air Force Today" and "Aviation Week & Space Technology" magazines so I'm going to go argue with MikeD and MDPilot about air combat maneuvers, undergraduate pilot training and the F-117A -- I think he was giving a lot of bad gouge about the performance of that aircraft.

I am glad you are doing this - I have felt the same way for a while. If those guys are going to post, they should put the real stuff up and not try and fool those of us that KNOW better because we have read a lot and have assumed the rest!

Seriously - excellent post.

 

[WacoFan]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

As for merit based upgrades, the way I see it, pretty much all pilots qualify. What's the job description? Something like fly the plane safely to the destination, right?

Well, unless you bend metal, in which case you may not need to worry about upgrading anymore, you did your job and you did it well.

You know Tony - you and I live in the merit based world. Nothing is more merit based than business generally. I like the system for the most part and it does weed out the non-hackers eventually. That said, I cannot for the life of me figure out how a merit based upgrade at an airline would work. As someone that is truly in love with merit based advancement in business and other parts of society (and I imagine I speak for Tony here too) - I can't think of too many things less desirable in aviation than merit based upgrades. Tony and I see our share of peers kissing ass to get ahead, or underling kissing our ass to get to our level...I do not want to see airline pilots doing the same. I want airline pilots to be standard and interchangeable, period. Merit based upgrade is an interesting buzz-word. I would imagine Tony and I may have a little more experience with incentive compensation and bonus/promotion systems than many on here just because of our experience - and I can't figure out how it could ever work. So, next person that say "merit based upgrade", be prepared to explain in detail how it would work, how it would not promote ass kissing, and why it is better than the current system.

 

[Trip7]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

Dude,

You just don't know when to stop eh?

A number of us don't have a problem bringing up a stroller or taking down a late gate checked bag down to the ramp.

The thing most of us who work(ed) in the 121 world will not do. . .is do someone else's job because our respective management teams failed at Staffing 101.

Further, throw on the OJI rates within the ramp community, and I'm not going to take my self out of work just to toss a couple over stuffed 80 lb bags into a CRJ.

Just ignore. You fellas just went 9 pages arguing with 3 people that have never stepped foot in the door for duty as a pilot in a 121 operation....

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

Here's the problem with a few of us in the thread.

Conventional wisdom says that you should refrain from judging until you've walked a mile in someone's moccasins.

Before I was a professional pilot, I had a particular perspective on the profession. Once I became a professional pilot -- you know, no fly no eat and I wasn't living on a relatives couch, that perspective changed.

My ideas about unions, pay rates, industry stability, the cockpit environment, yadda yadda yadda all changed when I actually started working in the profession.

There are a LOT of "moving parts" in the 121 business. It's not just going to an airplane, strapping in and blasting off, there's a lot of stuff that happens on a single leg that is difficult to describe without actually working in the field, which is why there are a number of "A Day in the Life" articles on the main page in order to help the noobies get a look at what really happens.

If you're a newbie, I highly suggest discovering the main website.

The internet is a terrible medium for communications.

I've watched private pilots try to debate someone like CalCapt on the internet, but if you met the guy in person, you'd realize that you'd better shut your mouth and open you ears and absorb all that guy has to say because he's the real deal. You know "Been there, done that, lemme tell you a story about what happened this morning..." type of guy.

I'll be straight with you guys. If you're an aspiring part 121 pilot, do yourself a favor and learn to listen better. ASK QUESTIONS because if you're anything like me, all of my perceptions about the way things should work got absolutely ROCKED and thrown out of the window when I burned my first few hundred pounds of Jet-A with paying passengers onboard.

Don't be that guy looking back years from now that writes me an email about "Hey Dough, I made an ass of myself when I was a student pilot arguing about organized labor and I'm kind of embarrassed about it, could you delete those posts?" -- I get those emails all the damned time.

Learn to listen. There's a lot of good experience here and just because you don't like an answer, or it isn't consistent with the way YOU think things work, or should work, well, welcome to the real world.

Yes, I've made fun of quite a bit of you behind the scenes about thinking that I've got the time to run downstairs and load bags during a delay or clean a 767-300 when the cabin cleaners don't arrive on time.

I would never ever EVER in a million years attempt to debate Polar about flying the 747 and freight operations because I have zero experience with either, to express an opinion about 121 flying is what we're all about, but to try to engage in continuous circular debate about 121 operations when you still have yet to spend a full day as an airline pilot?

No one wants to have to argue about the basics of the profession and there are aviation websites out there that, unless you're a verifiable professional pilot, don't want you on their website at all until you've got professional experience because they don't want to have to qualify their opinion about professional aviation to student pilots and weekend warriors.

I welcome everyone here at Jetcareers.com because we can learn from one another. If you like the interface that we share between grizzled airline captains and young neophytes that are dying to get behind the yoke, respect that and learn the fine art of learning when to shake your fists and especially when to listen.

You can't keep running experienced pilots off this board on one thread, then bitching about how you wish we had more experienced professional pilots and "OMG! Where did XXXX go?!" in another.

No I haven't been drinking, I'm just freaking dumbfounded how some of you expect to attract and keep professional pilots onboard, but continually discount their first-hand perspectives.

Me? I just finished a stack of "Air Force Today" and "Aviation Week & Space Technology" magazines so I'm going to go argue with MikeD and MDPilot about air combat maneuvers, undergraduate pilot training and the F-117A -- I think he was giving a lot of bad gouge about the performance of that aircraft.

Best post anyone has ever made on this forum. You da man! :clap::clap::clap:

 

[derg]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

And folks, don't be surprised if we are not invited this year or next for the tour of Allegiant operations at NetworkJC.

Just another note. Generally when you see a southernjets guy show up, it's generally after hours and hours of cajoling them to register.

Quite frankly, most are more than happy to stay on the DALPA forums because they don't have to deal with that weird balance between experienced pilots and heavily opinionated people who aren't.

Every time a thread like this pops up and runs seven pages, we're enforcing a disincentive to registering and posting. Oh lots of professional pilots from all sorts of operations lurk, but who wants to argue on their days off about why $75/hr to fly a Canadian DC-9 isn't something to put oN a tshirt or brag about on Facebook?

If you want more professional pilots onboard, start acting like it. If you want them to stay, foster it. Trust me, we all didn't join JC to argue about lazy pilots not wanting to throw bags, PFT or how much cooler your Virtual Continental Airlines works better than the real thing because you have a better management team.

 

[jynxyjoe]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

HA

Well, quite frankly, in a couple years, maybe a bunch of us on here will be worth talking to because we finally have years of experience. I don't know that my 3 years counts for crap.

But, if everyone wants to behave I'll do the same.

 

[jhugz]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

I guess a couple months in the right seat of an RJ you magically learn it all through osmosis.

I guess 6-12 month furloughed rj pilots just have the inside scoop on union's, work rules, etc.

 

[jynxyjoe]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

It's much more likely, that being convinced you know what you are talking about, makes you know what you are talking about.

 

[N519AT]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

Well I apologize. Had I known this one little news article about Allegiant would have turned into this firestorm, I never would have posted it.

Sorry Doug.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

I guess a couple months in the right seat of an RJ you magically learn it all through osmosis.

I guess 6-12 month furloughed rj pilots just have the inside scoop on union's, work rules, etc.

That might be a valid argument if you only argued about the airlines with "6-12 month furloughed rj pilots," but you don't. You also argue with experienced air line pilots that have been flying airliners for 5-30+ years. Wake up.

 

[tonyw]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

That said, I cannot for the life of me figure out how a merit based upgrade at an airline would work...So, next person that say "merit based upgrade", be prepared to explain in detail how it would work, how it would not promote ass kissing, and why it is better than the current system.

Exactly. In virtually all cases, the pilot successfully completes the job. The airplane, its passengers, and cargo arrive at the destination safely.

When you've got a situation where the outcome is identical in almost all cases, it is very difficult to find a way to distinguish between one employee and another. Yes, there are some people who are better sticks than other people. So what? The outcome is the same. The airplane arrives safely.

In the field I'm in, it's very easy to distinguish the better performers from the weaker ones. All you have to do is look at who is selling more and who is selling less. The numbers don't lie. And raises and promotions go to those who deliver more revenue.

If you think about it, while the airline industry doesn't do merit based promotions and shouldn't, the compensation works in a similar way. If you fly more passengers and cargo around, you get more money. Your flying generates more revenue, so you get more money.

 

[FlyChicaga]

re: 121 pilots throw bags or no? (and some Allegiant stuff)

When you've got a situation where the outcome is identical in almost all cases, it is very difficult to find a way to distinguish between one employee and another. Yes, there are some people who are better sticks than other people. So what? The outcome is the same. The airplane arrives safely.

I disagree. There are ways to differentiate, because getting from A to B safely is not the definition of a safe flight. If someone does a half-ass job and almost causes an accident, is the fact they made it to their destination unscathed a sign that they are safe? Of course not. Plus, I would argue in the minds of management, they would not quantify the end result only on safety alone. They'd look at schedule reliability, fuel savings, and customer satisfaction. There are many ways to take shortcuts to achieve those final three results, while still getting to the destination OK. However, you take many risks along the way.

If you think about it, while the airline industry doesn't do merit based promotions and shouldn't, the compensation works in a similar way. If you fly more passengers and cargo around, you get more money. Your flying generates more revenue, so you get more money.

Eh, I'd say it's based on what leverage you have to negotiate. In the regional airlines. there is not much leverage. We do not fly our own passengers, so we are forced to cut costs to ensure we keep our contracts. This drives wages down. The majors have more leverage, because they fly their own customers.

There are corporate pilots flying six passengers in a Falcon 900 around for well over twice what I make with 50 passengers. So it's not exactly based on production (how much you carry), but what the market will provide you.

I particularly like the way UPS has arranged their pay scale. Regardless of your equipment, you have one pay rate. Who says the packages in back of a B757 are less important than those on an MD-11? Instead of pay rates based on equipment/size, they have overrides for the type of flying you do. Per diem changes as well for the region you are flying in.