Pilots in crashes had failed multiple tests

Tristan said:
:clap:

3000+hours is not inexperienced. This crew may have broken the rules of airmanship 101, but so did a 17,000 hour 747 captain who took off out of Tenerife without clearance. None of us are infallible.
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I NEVER said this Captain was experienced.

I said I personally don't believe this accident was caused by FLIGHT inexperience.
 
seagull said:
Agree with the first part, but as for fatigue, it's pretty darn hard to recognize in yourself. However, this crew contributed to their own fatigue, for various reasons.
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I got blasted for volunteering this earlier.

As an experienced pilot should know when they're fatigued. Some of you guys need to go sit in the jumpseat and talk to some of the crews out there, we are ALL tired.
 
SmitteyB said:
I got blasted for volunteering this earlier.

As an experienced pilot should know when they're fatigued. Some of you guys need to go sit in the jumpseat and talk to some of the crews out there, we are ALL tired.
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You didn't get blasted, it was a discussion. :beer:

I flew at the commuters for 9 years. I did the 7 leg days. I did the 2 legs blocked for 7+59 with a 30 minute turn that always ran over block and late.

The seagull works for a back-of-the clock operation. Just jumpseating those flights I can say that is the most butt kicking fatigue I've ever had.

cheers and beers :beer:
 
SmitteyB said:
I got blasted for volunteering this earlier.

As an experienced pilot should know when they're fatigued. Some of you guys need to go sit in the jumpseat and talk to some of the crews out there, we are ALL tired.
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Tired is not the same as "fatigue". Look, I fly, and have flown, at all hours of the day/night and across every time zone on the planet (more than once during one trip!). I know the difference. Fatigue is more insidious. Tired is a different animal.
 
SmitteyB said:
There is something we're all forgetting...

An airplane will kill us whenever it wants to. It doesn't matter HOW GOOD of a pilot you are. Get over yourself, cmill.
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It appears you are implying it is just fate. It's not. It DOES matter how good of a pilot you are.
 
seagull said:
It appears you are implying it is just fate. It's not. It DOES matter how good of a pilot you are.
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I am not trying to make it sound like this will happen to everyone.

I am implying that to think that it cannot happen to you is unsafe. When an airplane tries to kill you (and they do), then you must have the basic skills and ability to save yourself and your cargo or passengers. But to think that it can't happen is raw stupidity.

Cmill (who my response was aimed at) immediately took offense saying that I was insulting by implying it could happen to anyone.
 
seagull said:
Tired is not the same as "fatigue". Look, I fly, and have flown, at all hours of the day/night and across every time zone on the planet (more than once during one trip!). I know the difference. Fatigue is more insidious. Tired is a different animal.
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Okay- maybe I used the wrong words.

But FATIGUE can mask itself quite well and you may never know you're fatigued until you begin microsleep- by then it's too late and you're already flying.
 
SmitteyB said:
Ala- Colgan 3407.
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Not really; they're two different kinds of discipline issues, depending on the semantics. 3407 to me, was more of a situational awareness deal rather than a flight discipline one. The 3407 crew wasn't willfully disregarding regs, and knowingly operating at times in a reckless manner, as the pilot of Czar 52 was.
 
mojo6911 said:
Nope, not really.

Since the majority of accidents are due to pilot error, especially this one, I would have to disagree.
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I see what he's trying to say, it'd better be stated: "You can die in an airplane at any time, and the plane isn't there to help you or hurt you, it's just the witness."

Contrast this with helos, which are always trying to kill themselves, and take you with them! :D
 
MikeD said:
I see what he's trying to say, it'd better be stated: "You can die in an airplane at any time, and the plane isn't there to help you or hurt you, it's just the witness."

Contrast this with helos, which are always trying to kill themselves, and take you with them! :D
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Exactly.

Airplane=
tricycle-red-side-view-600-pixel.jpg



Helicopter =

Unicycle-20525348396.jpg
 
mojo6911 said:
Nope, not really.

Since the majority of accidents are due to pilot error, especially this one, I would have to disagree.

http://www.planecrashinfo.com/cause.htm
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. . .and that's true, Mojo. Where it becomes more subjective are the facts behind the pilot error. You start hearing:

1. Experience
2. Long hours/fatigure
3. Training - as in training at GTA could have been a contributing factor, etc. Academy training background vice CFI background, etc.

Last, but not least is the ongoing discussion about pay producing a lower quality/caliber pilot who then commits an error.

All of the aforementioned are subjective.

I compare these discussions the same way I did as a 25 year military veteran LISTENING to discussions about who made the better leaders in the Army. . .West Point grads, Citadel/VMI grads, OCS grads, etc.

As if any of that made a significant difference when someone was throwing rounds at you.
 
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