granlistillo
Well-Known Member
Yep,
In the early 1990's it took one pink slip in the Navy to send you packing... You darn well better show up for the brief ready to bring on the "A" game.
Pilots in crashes had failed multiple tests
- Thread starter SpiceWeasel
- Start date
Yep,
In the early 1990's it took one pink slip in the Navy to send you packing... You darn well better show up for the brief ready to bring on the "A" game.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
I don't see anything wrong with using the AP in icing conditions. IMO, this is something the media grabbed on to and ran with it. You should use vigilance and caution while the AP is on, but there's nothing that prohibits it. I know in the CRJ you're not gonna notice any control differences if icing starts building up anyway if you're hand flying.
We will never know, but they were talking about ice accumulation before the accident. Perhaps he failed to identify the situation correctly.
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http://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/courses/inflight_icing/main.html
I still can't get over that either. That's like basic airmanship 101.
granlistillo
Well-Known Member
:yeahthat: I've been going over that many times in my mind. How can you not go full power and at least strive for a level attitude. The only thing that I can possibly think of is panic, or he misinterpreted the stickpusher as a tail stall.
WacoFan
Bigly
Things can get really bad, really fast. Panic is kind of the way I am leaning although there is a strong sense of maybe, because they are discussing ice that he immediately thought tailplane stall. Not sure and we will probably never know. Still very sad about this. Not sure why but this accident makes me sadder than most and has from the beginning.
granlistillo
Well-Known Member
I am leaning 97% towards panic. Me personally I can't imagine pulling a transport a/c 30 degrees nose up. That would scare the heck out of me.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
You make some pretty broad statements for someone who does not know me. Personally, I would consider an FO who laughs at a captains brief to be combative and an ass. But since you made the accusation I'll momentarily highjack the thread and lay the facts on the table and let others decide if I am a conflictive person. BTW, flew with hundreds of FOs, so we're talking two I could not handle- a number that is less than 1%. In the first case we did not have a pro-standards; in the second we had a pro-standards, but they could not deal with her either.
#1 FO- Many things happened, but I'll start with our initial meeting and end with the final straw. We are called to the ticket counter of the dead head flight. The ticket agent told us there was one seat in first class and asked who was senior. I was about to do the thing most captains would do- offer it to the FO. He chimes in "The captain is senior, but I'm more experienced." Mind you, we had never flown together before and he did not know anything about me. Guess who sat in coach. The final straw was the next day. Driving snow storm, so we got de-iced. We exceeded the hold over time, so it was time for a pre-takeoff contamination check which consisted of one pilot (normally the FO), popping the door and checking for contamination. I asked him to go do it. He responded it was not necessary. I responded it was necessary IAW our limitations and we needed to do it. He responded that I was obviously not experienced in such matters and it did not need to be done. I asked him to humor me and do it. He refused. I told him we had two choices- he could do it, or we would go back to the gate and a new FO would be flown in to finish the flight. He got up and went back to check. At no time did the "door open" warning illuminate. He came back and said we were okay.
#2 FO. Where to start with her. I guess KSYR. After getting de-iced we were given taxi instructions. As I normally do in such situations, I told her what I thought ATC wanted us to do. She disagreed. I asked her to confirm with ATC. She told me there was no need as she was right. I asked her again to do so. She refused. I told her to humor me and check. She said nothing and looked out the window. I called ATC and they confirmed what I thought. I gave her a quick talk that we needed to work together, that this was a two pilot crew for a reason.
Next incident. We get to our hub. My normal procedure at a busy airport was to write down our ramp/gate on the W&B form and put it on the center panel so I could remember where to go after landing. I briefed her on this, but she still threw it out. After landing while taxiing I noticed it was gone; I tried to confirm with her that we were going to ramp#__. She refused to respond, so I assumed we were going there. After turning on the taxi way ATC told me I was going the wrong way and she gave me a grin like "I got you." I asked why she did not correct me and she responded "You're the captain. Taxiing is your job." This is where I got professional standards involved.
Next we are returning from an overnight. I briefed that I would be taking this leg and set up the autopilot to my side. After going through my checks I noticed the autopilot was on her side, so I set it back to my side. She reached up, set it to her side and said "It's my leg." We had a few words and I almost returned to the gate right then.
As soon as we got to our hub I tried to see a CP, but none were in. I left a message for one asking him to call me ASAP. Next leg we are going into a place that is at CAT II minimums, so I start to brief a CAT II approach- a new procedure at the airline then. She announces she does not want to do one. I ask her if she has been trained and if it is legal for us to do one, and she affirms that it is. So I start to brief the CAT II approach. At one time I put down the QRH that had the CAT II approach to set up my avionics. I go to pick up the QRH to finish my captain's brief and she has it. I ask her for it back as I am not finished. She responds "I'm reading it and I'll give it to you when I'm done." To say the least I told her then that we were not doing a CAT II approach. Fortunately it went up to CAT I minimums.
granlistillo
Well-Known Member
Blackhawk,
Sounds like you handled both cases as I would have. Good on you. I can't imagine ever acting like those two bozos. As I pointed out, I haven't laughed at anyone, nor had a serious issue with anyone.
I think somethings are getting lost on the message board. For the record, I will state if you gave me a briefing as described in your post, I would probably lose my "military bearing" and laugh like a friggin hyena. But again I think something is lost in the message board translation. May I suggest if we met in person, we would probably act as two professionals, and probably get along just fine?
Back to my original point... I personally don't cry about the regionals lifestyle when I am inside the marker, or at any other time... But that doesn't preclude me from making the observation that the industry pays mcdonaldesque wages and why oh why the surprise with the results?
Sounds like you handled both cases as I would have. Good on you. I can't imagine ever acting like those two bozos. As I pointed out, I haven't laughed at anyone, nor had a serious issue with anyone.
I think somethings are getting lost on the message board. For the record, I will state if you gave me a briefing as described in your post, I would probably lose my "military bearing" and laugh like a friggin hyena. But again I think something is lost in the message board translation. May I suggest if we met in person, we would probably act as two professionals, and probably get along just fine?
Back to my original point... I personally don't cry about the regionals lifestyle when I am inside the marker, or at any other time... But that doesn't preclude me from making the observation that the industry pays mcdonaldesque wages and why oh why the surprise with the results?
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
I gave captain briefs so FOs would know who I was and what I wanted from them. Yes, there is standarization, but as I quickly found standards were not always followed. I found it caused fewer problems if I started out letting FOs know who I was and where I stood on things prior to the first engine start instead of waiting until something happened. It was also time to cover such things as EPs- not the specifics from the check list, but general things such as "Don't assume I will take the controls. I normally like the FO to initially fly the airplane so I can mange the EP. It's easier for me to manage the EP and monitor your flying than to fly and monitor your management." I warned them that I was kind of an ass about sterile cockpit below 10000' so I would not have to be rude and cut them off when they started talking about their boyfriend/girlfriend during approach.
I agree about what is posted on websites.
granlistillo
Well-Known Member
Gotcha... I am sure you and I would get along just fine.
Sprint100
Well-Known Member
The downside to that idea is that some are just prone to 'f' up. Saying that wasn't PC, but I couldn't put it in any nicer terms
There should be a limit on how many chances you have to pass. Most people can ace a test if givin' all those opportunities to fail first.
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
It can happen to anyone. Pilots better then me and you have put good airplanes in the ground.
tonyw
Well-Known Member
The fact that the vast majority of people who want jobs have them? Unemployment is at 9.4 percent, and they're saying it may hit double digits.
That means nearly 90 percent of people who want jobs have them.
Let's not make it out to be like there's no work to be found. That wasn't the case even in the Great Depression, with its 25 percent unemployment rates.
Yeah, I had a friend who washed out of UPT because he didn't handle the heat of an Oklahoma summer too well. If he was in UPT during the winter, he'd have been flying around F-15s or F-16s.
But because it was the summer and he puked a couple of times too many in a 120 degree cockpit, out he went.
MFT1Air
Mfalme Soleimani
Yea, but TonyW. . .they are furloughing pilots. Companies are laying off. Understand the other statistic that plays so heavily into the equation. . .the underemployed. They play into the equation as well.
As the jobs diminished, I'm quite certain the pay didn't increase.
As the jobs diminished, I'm quite certain the pay didn't increase.
seagull
Well-Known Member
sounds like two individuals who need to find a different profession. I am surprised you'd give them even ONE leg with that kind of behavior. I would park the jet and request a replacement. Period.
Did your friend end up in middle-of-nowhere Montana/the Dakotas/Wyoming, underground and ready with the pistol to say:
"I want a confirmation on the launch order!"
Your friend (.38 in hand): "That is not proper protocol! we have our orders! I must instruct you to turn your key! TURN YOUR KEY NOW SIR!!"
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Holy crap. I thought I had a few bad FO's. Man I would have like to have been a fly on that wall. Just amazing. I've only flown with two at Mesaba that come close to the seriousness screwed up head of those two, but they are a long way off.
