Pilot Mistook Venus for Aircraft, Plunged Plane Towards Atlantic

[SeanD]

Of course the media is hard at work putting their spin on this. CNN was saying it was the FO who did it and made mention he was having his 40 min recommended rest but had been away for 75 minutes. The way they made it sound was that the cockpit was unoccupied.

 

[dustoff17]

............................. Not to beat a dead horse but ALPA messed up bad on the augmented crew concessions.

I'm not a member of this or any union but I see things like this a LOT on JC. Why do you, as pilots/members, support stuff like this?

We can run anywhere from 10-14 hour legs in a single across the Atlantic. It's tough but easily managable. What we're not seeing in this discussion is all the time spent by any of these pilots PRIOR to the door closing (i.e. sleep dep getting to work, delays, commute, etc). These are bigger issues....IMHO

 

[A150K]

I'd start seeing stuff too if I crossed as many time zones as frequently as your typical 76 pilot would.

 

[dasleben]

We can run anywhere from 10-14 hour legs in a single across the Atlantic. It's tough but easily managable. What we're not seeing in this discussion is all the time spent by any of these pilots PRIOR to the door closing (i.e. sleep dep getting to work, delays, commute, etc). These are bigger issues....IMHO

That would be fatiguing in a single, but you wouldn't do it all the time. Constant redeye international ops really takes its toll on your body in a number of different ways. The non-scheduled side of long-haul can be especially tough; I've done several 3am westbound departures out of Europe where you don't see the sun for 10 hours.

 

[dustoff17]

That would be fatiguing in a single, but you wouldn't do it all the time. Constant redeye international ops really takes its toll on your body in a number of different ways. The non-scheduled side of long-haul can be especially tough; I've done several 3am westbound departures out of Europe where you don't see the sun for 10 hours.

Valid point..........
But, how many back-to-back long-hauls OR how many in a month are the airline crews required to do?

 

[Cav]

I'm not a member of this or any union but I see things like this a LOT on JC. Why do you, as pilots/members, support stuff like this?

We can run anywhere from 10-14 hour legs in a single across the Atlantic. It's tough but easily managable. What we're not seeing in this discussion is all the time spent by any of these pilots PRIOR to the door closing (i.e. sleep dep getting to work, delays, commute, etc). These are bigger issues....IMHO

Two entirely different scenarios. In one scenario you are responsible for the life of one person and the other you are responsible for 200+. I don't mean to be harsh but if you screw up, it might make the local paper. I have an infinite respect for pilots who conduct the types of operations you are describing because their balls are much bigger than my own but no one in their right mind considers it a normal operation and there is no way the pilot you describe is 100% after being at the controls for 10-14 hours. Airlines, the FAA, and the public expect a zero sum game. Furthermore, I commuted in over 24 hrs in advance for the flight so my commute was not the issue for me or any other member of the crew.

 

[Markf64]

Let's face it....767 FOs are dangerous.

@Doug Taylor

 

[Seggy]

Not to beat a dead horse but ALPA messed up bad on the augmented crew concessions.

How so?

 

[dustoff17]

Two entirely different scenarios. In one scenario you are responsible for the life of one person and the other you are responsible for 200+. I don't mean to be harsh but if you screw up, it might make the local paper. I have an infinite respect for pilots who conduct the types of operations you are describing because their balls are much bigger than my own but no one in their right mind considers it a normal operation and there is no way the pilot you describe is 100% after being at the controls for 10-14 hours. Airlines, the FAA, and the public expect a zero sum game. Furthermore, I commuted in over 24 hrs in advance for the flight so my commute was not the issue for me or any other member of the crew.

Cav, we differ in that I perform my flights, whether alone or full, with only one thought: Self-preservation. I don't worry about the people in the back as far as thier "survival", it's mine I worry about. If I make it safe, so do they. However, you are right about the paper, mine wouldn't even make this page......

....................Furthermore, I commuted in over 24 hrs in advance for the flight so my commute was not the issue for me or any other member of the crew.

In the industry, you and this conduct, are exceptions........................

 

[Cav]

How so?

Because I still fear the law of unintended consequences by extending unaugmented flight times. Yes I understand that it's hard time but I'm still not convinced it's going to be implemented as we hope. I'm sure you disagree and that's fine, I hope you are correct.

 

[dasleben]

Valid point..........
But, how many back-to-back long-hauls OR how many in a month are the airline crews required to do?

The worst I've done is 6 long hauls in a month (which doesn't sound like much), but that included flights to the Middle East and Central Asia, as well as Atlantic crossings. It really tears you up physically. I gained about 15 pounds my first year, and had problems with insomnia. I've lost almost all of that weight and sleep like a baby now that I've been staying off the long-hauls.

All of it was 3-man augmented, too.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Because I still fear the law of unintended consequences by extending unaugmented flight times. Yes I understand that it's hard time but I'm still not convinced it's going to be implemented as we hope. I'm sure you disagree and that's fine, I hope you are correct.

Then how about waiting to see if your prediction is true before claiming that ALPA "messed up bad?"

 

[Cptnchia]

Thanks! Enjoying it so far.

You doing TOE?

 

[nocturnalaviator]

Of course the media is hard at work putting their spin on this. CNN was saying it was the FO who did it and made mention he was having his 40 min recommended rest but had been away for 75 minutes. They way they made it sound was that the cockpit was unoccupied.

Did they have the "aviation expert" explain? You know anchor bob "who is a private instrument rated pilot" will give us his thoughts as to what the crew must've been thinking.

God, I always miss the good stuff!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Seggy]

Cav, I do see your point. Your pilot group was told recently to go 'all hands on deck' to have the LGA/DCA slot swap approved, then you see the flying go to outsourced lift carriers doing DFW-LGA. So with that, I understand the skepticism. Please correct me if I am wrong!

 

[gne in prog]

Of course the media is hard at work putting their spin on this. CNN was saying it was the FO who did it and made mention he was having his 40 min recommended rest but had been away for 75 minutes. They way they made it sound was that the cockpit was unoccupied.

They aren't spinning anything.

 

[Cav]

Then how about waiting to see if your prediction is true before claiming that ALPA "messed up bad?"

You are absolutely correct ATN_Pilot, it was a poor choice of words on my part. I made it sound absolute when in reality it's only my opinion. My apologies to guys like you and Seggy who work hard on our behalf.

Seggy, that's part of it. It was an unfortunate event that raised an eyebrow or two. That being said, I don't blame ALPA for the slot swap issues...little they could realistically do. My objection in the FTDT regs was that I really didn't see it as an opportunity for pilots to give up much of anything therefore I don't really understand the necessity for change or ALPA's willingness to relent in that area. I'm open however to the possibility that the hard time restriction will end up being ok in the long run. Our management has indicated that they do not plan to challenge the schedules because of the potential costs involved during IROPS...actions speak louder than words so I'll standby. How will other companies schedule their augmented crews? Will that force the rest of us in a corner? All valid questions IMO that are a long way from being answered.

 

[Cav]

You doing TOE?

Yes. I finished a domestic trip the week before last and I finished the first of 2 TOE trips on Sat. I can't say enough good things about the LCP's I've flown with so far...and the relief FO who I learned a great deal from last week. She was really sharp.

 

[matthew]

Hitting Venus is now a JC meme.

 

[Cptnchia]

Cool! I'd tell you not to worry about doing long haul once you finish, but you'll get more international trips on reserve than I'll get as s line holder.