Pilot-Fatigue Rule May Stall
- Thread starter v1valarob
- Start date
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Also, shouldn't the argument that people don't think about safety when they buy a ticket be the strongest argument yet for government to take a hand in regulating things like rest rules? "Hey people assume a uniform level of safety because the FAA tells us there is, shouldn't we as the authorizing body be making sure there IS a uniform level of safety?" Rest rules/hiring mins/airplane and pilot certification standards,etc....
RightSeatGirl
KA'PLAH BITCHES!
It starts by taking a stand and refusing to fly fatigued. I started a two day trip yesterday that was scheduled for the first report after 0800 and day two at almost 1100. I had been on late reports for months and haven't fell asleep before midnight in weeks. I only got 6 hours sleep so I started off with a sleep deficit. I was advised I was rescheduled for a 0445 report on day two for a 6 leg 12 hour day. There was no way I was gonna fall asleep soon enough to get any useful rest and I ended up getting only about 3 1/2 hours. I reported as instructed, flew one leg, made numerous small errors that thankfully all were caught by a combination of an alert captain and good CRM, got to the hub and hit'em with a fatigue callout and filed an ASAP report on it.
I'm sick and tired of being tired. I decided facing potential management retaliation was the better play then continuing to risk my career, my certificate and worse case scenario, my life and the lives of the pax and crew by flying fatigued. I once read an article that suggested via some study that 80% of regional pilots are fatigued on duty 80% of the time. Well, I don't how accurate that article was but I won't doubt it's conclusion. The overall point is we must stop allowing ourselves to be bullied into flying fatigued by mgt. If we all refuse then they will stop pulling this kind of garbage on us. There are many details of this anecdote that I can share but one extra one is that they had a new hire f/o in place that could have done that flight legally. He was in the jumpseat doing his observation legs. And I was in the right seat struggling to keep my eyes open.
Time to open your eyes people. Pushing through a day suffering from fatigue "to get the job done" or to "not rock the boat" does not make you a real pilot whatever that is. It makes you a moron. I'm not gonna be a moron any more!
I'm sick and tired of being tired. I decided facing potential management retaliation was the better play then continuing to risk my career, my certificate and worse case scenario, my life and the lives of the pax and crew by flying fatigued. I once read an article that suggested via some study that 80% of regional pilots are fatigued on duty 80% of the time. Well, I don't how accurate that article was but I won't doubt it's conclusion. The overall point is we must stop allowing ourselves to be bullied into flying fatigued by mgt. If we all refuse then they will stop pulling this kind of garbage on us. There are many details of this anecdote that I can share but one extra one is that they had a new hire f/o in place that could have done that flight legally. He was in the jumpseat doing his observation legs. And I was in the right seat struggling to keep my eyes open.
Time to open your eyes people. Pushing through a day suffering from fatigue "to get the job done" or to "not rock the boat" does not make you a real pilot whatever that is. It makes you a moron. I'm not gonna be a moron any more!
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
I could seriously run with this statement- it's funny. But it's also serious, so I won't. I called in Fatigued the other day. The company was playing shenanigans with my schedule due to a logistical error on their part. They removed me from my last leg on Day 1, and swapped my crew with another crew. We got their Day 2, right up to the original overnight leg we were scheduled for. That put us in the 12 hour range. With delays, we would've slid way up to 15 hours. Oh, and don't forget the monster line crawling across Florida that night.
I was already slap-happy from the hotel they put us in. To be fair- it was the third party vendor that put us there. But hey- it was cheaper. FATIGUE CALL.
I don't feel even slightly bad about this- I made the right call for safety.. and my health. When the review board reads the report I filled out, I might just get reimbursed the hours I lost, too. Doesn't really seem like a hard call in that case.
If you're TIRED and MAKING MISTAKES, CALL IN FATIGUED.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
I completely agree with this. If you feel you're unsafe to fly, call fatigued. But, if I may play the devil's advocate...
There is a fine line. Are you tired and irritated that you had to get up early in the morning, or are you legitimately fatigued? Sometimes an airplane needs to be moved at some odd hour of the night, and you may not get 10 hours of beauty rest before you get going. I mean, does anyone think the crews who fly, say, the 777 between Newark and Mumbai arrive in India after a 15 hour leg chipper and ready to greet the sun? No, I guarantee they're cranky, tired, and not operating at 100%. Does that mean everyone should be calling in fatigued before they even leave the blocks? No, probably not. It's just the nature of the beast.
Again, just being devil's advocate. I hate ridiculous duty days like everyone else (see my post above), but I mean...are you ("you" in general, not "you" directed at Firebird) just yawning, or are you legitimately not fit to fly?
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Excellent question- it's a question I always ask myself, too. Is it merely a case of the "I don't wanna" scenario.. or is it genuine fatigue?
I note that I've only called in Fatigued at the beginning of the day once, and that was because they called me at 5 AM to give me an blatantly illegal assignment.
This is where 'Fatigue' really hits that grey area. The idea I put out to fellow line pilots is this:
Once you're sure you're not just pouting and going "I don't wanna work no more", you have to determine if you're really going to be able to perform if it all goes to hell. Then I tell them "If you're seriously asking the question, you're already fatigued."
When you decide to go ahead and suck down some coffee and suck it up.. and you're shooting that approach to minimums three hours later.. it's a little late then, isn't it?
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
This is where fatigue tracking plays an important part. If you've got someone that drops the F bomb whenever they have a 5 leg day or every Friday on the last day of a trip, you've got an abuser. If you've got someone that calls in fatigued after a 5 leg day on reduced rest, it's probably not an abuser.
Our policy here is if you call in fatigued at the beginning of a trip, it goes down as a sick call. IMO, that's just a way to hide fatigue during our "double duty" pairings. Here's an example. On a Sat, I flew 5 legs on a 12 hour duty day. Come home, and I'm SCHEDULED for 10 hours of rest (min rest in domicile and legal), a 20 minute stint of reserve from 7:40-8:00 am and a show time at 18:00 for a highspeed/CDO/stand up. So, I do the responsible thing by trying to get my sleep clock adjusted for the trip on my schedule. Then they call me at 7:40 to take the CDO off and put me on RRA. Now, how am I supposed to be rested for a highspeed AND a potential AM assignment at the same time? It's totally legal in the eyes of the FAA, though. If we're robots that can be switched on and off with an 8-10 hour cool down time, it would work. However, we operate in the real world. In my situation, it was technically the start of a trip even though I'd flown the day before. They wanted to put it down as a sick call when it was pretty darn obvious that I was fatigued due to the company's scheduling practices and lack of staffing.
RightSeatGirl
KA'PLAH BITCHES!
Yes it was a fair question. The answer for me was I'd say both. But I was genuinely fatigued. I was making stupid mistakes I don't make when I'm rested. I actually had made a navigation error that luckily was a scenario where ATC hadn't noticed. We departed from a field with a closed tower and were navigating direct to the first fix as we climbed out from T/O, I punched in direct on the UNS but just kept right on flyin along in HDG mode letting the flight director lead me straight to paperwork hell and violation city but the bossman spoke up before it got out of hand, I corrected, turned on George and coupled the UNS with a happy ending, ATC hadn't even ID'd us on Radar yet. The point being I was too tired to realize what the hell I was doing..Not to mention I hosed the W & B by 1000 pounds becuase I misread the fuel indicators, but asked bossman to double check me and again, saved! When I called off I even told them if they wanted to put me in a day room so I could get adequate rest I'd finish the day for them to my duty limit. They said no thanks, we have everything covered....Indeed.
But was I pissed? You betcha! I knew the reschedule would put me into a fatigue situation and I'd have to call out, lose pay and take an occurrence. Not to mention face potential backlash from our Draconian Mgt team..We essentially have no fatigue policy other than we are supposedly immune from disciplinary action short obvious abuse but have nothing in our contract on it. But in 4.5 years it's the only time I've pulled the trigger. Probably should have about 100 times but was always too concerned with "putting myself in the spotlight", well...never again. I'd rather get fired, sue the bastards then retire to a quaint bungalow a short walk from Maho Beach, SXM.
I believe fatigue protection should not be abused. If you just need a day off for whatever just call out sick.
Been there too many times and I'd bet I'm far from the only one. It's gotta stop because every time one of us does that we, for lack of a more elegant term, screw every working pilot in the industry.
But was I pissed? You betcha! I knew the reschedule would put me into a fatigue situation and I'd have to call out, lose pay and take an occurrence. Not to mention face potential backlash from our Draconian Mgt team..We essentially have no fatigue policy other than we are supposedly immune from disciplinary action short obvious abuse but have nothing in our contract on it. But in 4.5 years it's the only time I've pulled the trigger. Probably should have about 100 times but was always too concerned with "putting myself in the spotlight", well...never again. I'd rather get fired, sue the bastards then retire to a quaint bungalow a short walk from Maho Beach, SXM.
I believe fatigue protection should not be abused. If you just need a day off for whatever just call out sick.
Been there too many times and I'd bet I'm far from the only one. It's gotta stop because every time one of us does that we, for lack of a more elegant term, screw every working pilot in the industry.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
It's a pretty big gray area over here as well. I called in fatigued 5 times over last summer. Every single one of them was the result of clock switch where they had my flying the first leg of the day into the hub, going to the hotel and "resting" for 8 or 9 hours and then coming back on line and flying a turn and a leg into the overnight which got in around midnight. All 5 of those fatigue calls disappeared into thin air. There is no record of them anywhere. On the other hand, several pilots have gotten letters in their files about excessive sick calls and they are including fatigue calls in that count. No idea why some people have those calls used against them and some people (me) don't.
RightSeatGirl
KA'PLAH BITCHES!
Did you file an ASAP report with each fatigue call?
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Dude, that sucks. Our contract provisions would never allow for a schedule construction like that. Here, when you call in Fatigued, the flying gets removed and you go home. That's it. If you fill out a Fatigue Review form on the union webpage, it goes to a bi-weekly meeting. It's discussed. If the union and company agree that it's 'real' fatigue, then the call gets taken off your attendance record. Culpability by the company results in a refund of the pay deducted for the flying removed. The funny part: Many of our pilots view FATG in their attendance record as a badge of honor. That, and they don't condone the tacit suggestion that it needs to be removed if it's reviewed- as if it were some sort of black mark on a pilot's record.
Double funny: The FAA's definition of physical readiness: 'IM SAFE'. The E stands for Exhaustion, right? As in Fatigue? Personally, I think all fatigue calls should be deemed on par with sick calls, and sick time should be able to be used to cover any flying deducted due to Fatigue. Being physically unable to fly is being physically unable, right?
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
This is what I'm talking about. How easy is it to get goaded into a position where you're blasting out of some dark nowhere airport surrounded by big rocks and suddenly the GPWS started blaring at you? It could happen that fast. I sometimes wonder how many 'pilot error' crashes include fatigue issues. I did a college paper on a Learjet crash that was obviously the product of fatigue. Their track of the ILS looks comically bad. Like they'd been doing tequila shooters the whole way there.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Here, you CAN use sick time to cover a fatigue call, but it normally takes a while to get it back. My record is 2 months to get my money back from a fatigue call. You have to file the report, it goes to the fatigue oversight committee, and if they accept it, it goes in the pile. If they DON'T accept it, then it goes into a meeting with your base manager. If they then accept it, then you can get paid. IMO, it's too many hoops. Default it to pay out, and after you jump through the hoops, if it's not a valid FTG call, THEN deduct the money.
The kicker from my fatigue call I posted about above? They put me into rest for 10 hours then put me on a MEM-HSV reduced rest overnight that same night.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
That's something I don't get. At Beagle, if you call Fatigue, you're done. For the calendar day. They don't mess with you at all until the next day. You might as well yell "Ollie ollie oxen free!" as you whatever airport you're in. That seems to make sense to me. Not "put me on a back burner for a few hours then jack with my sleep cycle even more."
I'm totally throwing this out there to make people who don't get this treatment envious. So then they'll fight for it at their carrier. Pilots deserve at least this much respect. We're not mules.
Boris Badenov
This is no laughing matter.
hahahahha. "Call in fatigued?" You might as well just call in unemployed in 135.
HVYMETALDRVR
Well-Known Member
But it does, because the company that cuts the most costs has the cheapest tickets. Hence the whole Low Cost Carrier scheme or Spirit Airline's Ultra Low Cost Carrier business plan. And unfortunately running the company on a skeleton crew is often a part of this business plan. If you can run the company on 10 less FOs making 25K/yr and 10 less Captains making 50K/yr... you just saved $750,000 in 12 months. Its just math.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
I'm not exactly sure that Allegiant or Spirit pilots, who work for companies that sell tickets for a few bucks a piece, are flying tired, and thus I don't think you can point to them and say "Look, this is the problem!"
Hell my company doesn't even sell its own tickets, so how can that related to fatigue?
Hootie
Old Skool
I called in for fatigue once at my company, but they had jacked with me so much that by the point I was fatigued, I called in fatigued for the remainder of what they had me scheduled for (three days). I told them I will call them back if/when I feel rested. I guess in the future I should fill out an asap report.
HVYMETALDRVR
Well-Known Member
Because at the end of the day its all determined by numbers... every carrier has a team of accountants, economists, and financial advisors that know nothing of shooting an ILS down to Cat IIIc mins on the tail end of 5 leg day running on minimum rest from the previous night. They determine with duty and rest regs what minimum number of pilots will be required to cover all the flights of the day. They also look at historical information and the likehood of weather and crew members calling sick and make there they have minimum number of pilots available to cover sick calls mx issues etc. If the wx goes to hell in a handbag and everyone is delayed more than usual and they're short then so be it, they just wring everyone dry for every hour and dollar they're worth because its cheaper than hiring more people in the short term. Its called lowering the overhead. If your company doesn't sell the tickets then I guess they have a contract with a larger carrier right? Your company is contracted to do xxxx amount of flying for xxxx amount of money. The company giving the contract just wants it done, however it can be within legal boundaries, therefore your company wants to do it as cheap as possible to have as much cash left over as possible, which is the profit. And since pilots make salary and get paid xxxx amount every month no matter how much they fly, its more profitable to hire as few of them as possible and pay them as little as they or the union will allow.
RPM
Well-Known Member
Absolutely not true. I called in fatigued after 2 legs out of domicile recently in the morning, reduced rest, no sleep, loud hotel. Was put into hotel during day for 10 hrs, couldn't sleep day time, I'm not a robot.. even though I was exhausted. Then given flight and deadhead same day to another base after so called rest.. I called the chief pilot and said wtf.. now I have an 18 hr day, how is that better? She said, that's what happens when you call in fatigued at an outstatition. Exact words here.. Nice...
This isn't the first time I have been assigned flying same day after a fatigue at eagle.. no special treatment here... I fatigued again once back in base, but still.. they will try.
Similar threads
