Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past dest.

[minitour]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

Nite man. It's an educated debate, with hopefully no hard feelings.

With me it's never edumicated. No hard feelings though...I just really had to get a workout done. I'm a day behind.

-mini

 

[derg]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

Nothing to do with aircraft type.

There are many doctors and lawyers that fly V-tail Bonanzas reposinsibly on a daily basis.

 

[derg]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

Nothing to do with aircraft type. There are many doctors that are flying along V-tail Bonanzas responsibly.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

Nothing to do with aircraft type.

There are many doctors and lawyers that fly V-tail Bonanzas reposinsibly on a daily basis.

V-tail did have a slight design flaw when rear loaded in an overspeed condition (nick cage voice: I want to take it's tail... off!). Since the cuffs, the plane won't kill ya for silly mistakes.

 

[Okie_Pilot]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

Just did the math. You are falling at a rate of 30 ft a sec. in a airbag harnessed shell.

1800 feet per minute?

No thanks, I'll stick with best glide and some flaps and a flare at the very end over that. :bandit:

 

[jhugz]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

1800 feet per minute?

No thanks, I'll stick with best glide and some flaps and a flare at the very end over that. :bandit:

100 mph = 8800 feet per minute

 

[roundout]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

I am pretty sure off hand that it is 1750ish fpm.

You can do a power off/full flap falling leaf stall in a DA40 and come down at 1200fpm while YOU maneuver to a position on the ground where you want to set it down. At that point you can hit the dirt at 1200fpm or you can drop the nose at 100 feet, pick up some energy and make a softer landing.

I know which I'd rather be faced with.

edit: I don't even work for Diamond anymore, so this is not based on anything but perspective from a pilot. It doesn't mean that the Cirrus isn't a decent airplane; I think it is. I think the Cirrus in the hands of a low-time pilot is deadly and this has been proven many times. A Cirrus in the hands of a professional or more experienced pilot is perfectly safe.

 

[Goonie]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

Yes, that's the one.

They did a great job of landing the airplane. Too bad they put themselves in that position in the first place. A windshield shatter on a Kingair is not an emergency item as long as you keep the thing pressurized at high altitudes. These pilots dumped the pressurization and the second pane shattered on them. If i recall these pilots were "self trained" and never went to formal training. If they had, they would have known how to deal with the situation.

 

[CK]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

He explained to me (and this is someone with thousands of hours dual given in Cirri) why he would pull the chute at any time other then over the airport. He first asked me what type of Car do I have. I said a Kia Rio. He then asked me if I would feel comfortable driving through a corn field or any field for that matter at 90 miles per hour with out knowing exactly what kinda bumps or boulders could be in that field (let alone power lines). I of course said no.

Would you be comfortable driving the car over the side of a three story building without know what is beneth you? A body takes horizontal deceleration much better than vertical deceleration. It only takes 1800fpm to break your spine...1750fpm is too close for me. I'll take hitting a bump in a corn field.

And for the record, I feel that Cirrus sales and training are largely to blame for the poor accident record. Sure some pilots were just stupid, but the majority of them were poorly trained. I spent last weekend retraining a SR22 owner who was taught very, very poorly by a Cirrus instructor.

Alex.

 

[Okie_Pilot]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

100 mph = 8800 feet per minute

No crap. That's if I decide to fly it into the ground, but I usually flare on my landings, but that's just me.

....and yes, you can flare with an engine out.

 

[jhugz]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

You can do a power off/full flap falling leaf stall in a DA40 and come down at 1200fpm while YOU maneuver to a position on the ground where you want to set it down. At that point you can hit the dirt at 1200fpm or you can drop the nose at 100 feet, pick up some energy and make a softer landing.

I know which I'd rather be faced with.

edit: I don't even work for Diamond anymore, so this is not based on anything but perspective from a pilot. It doesn't mean that the Cirrus isn't a decent airplane; I think it is. I think the Cirrus in the hands of a low-time pilot is deadly and this has been proven many times. A Cirrus in the hands of a professional or more experienced pilot is perfectly safe.

40 kts = 52 mph = 4576 feet per minute

 

[jhugz]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

And for the record, I feel that Cirrus sales and training are largely to blame for the poor accident record. Sure some pilots were just stupid, but the majority of them were poorly trained. I spent last weekend retraining a SR22 owner who was taught very, very poorly by a Cirrus instructor.

Alex.

Just for kicks and giggles what was he doing that was so wrong.

 

[CK]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

40 kts = 52 mph = 4576 feet per minute

Horizontal speed is irrellevent unless you hit a brick wall. You will slowly bleed off that energy and you body will take type of decleration better as it will have little affect on your spine. Car accidents, Nascar especially, prove that rapid horizontal deceleration is not fatal. Falling accidents show how fragile your spine is and how even a 10' fall can easily be deadly.

Just for kicks and giggles what was he doing that was so wrong.

I could write a long essay on why Cirrus training is crappy and use plenty of first hand stories. This guy was taught to hot start the airplane with the throttle wide open so the engine screams to life right to 2000rpm, he was taught to climb right at Vx, lean aggressively in the climb, just keep the cylinder head temps below 450* (anything above 380* is bad IMO), and to fly final, to the numbers at 90kts (ask Boni about the '03 SR22 he saw float halfway down the runway at GED while he was there). I have not even gotten past the most basic of airmanship yet, there was still a lot of instrument flying that he was taught very poorly, and the ADM he was taught was horrendous.

Alex.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

I could write a long essay on why Cirrus training is crappy and use plenty of first hand stories. This guy was taught to hot start the airplane with the throttle wide open so the engine screams to life right to 2000rpm, he was taught to climb right at Vx, lean aggressively in the climb, just keep the cylinder head temps below 450* (anything above 380* is bad IMO), and to fly final, to the numbers at 90kts (ask Boni about the '03 SR22 he saw float halfway down the runway at GED while he was there). I have not even gotten past the most basic of airmanship yet, there was still a lot of instrument flying that he was taught very poorly, and the ADM he was taught was horrendous.

Alex.

Hehe. I've heard a lot of similar things.

I have an honest question. Where is this push for Vx climbs coming from. I'm hearing this a lot more. I've been in shock that this is being taught. What is the theory behind Vx climbs?

 

[jhugz]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

Horizontal speed is irrellevent unless you hit a brick wall. You will slowly bleed off that energy and you body will take type of decleration better as it will have little affect on your spine. Car accidents, Nascar especially, prove that rapid horizontal deceleration is not fatal. Falling accidents show how fragile your spine is and how even a 10' fall can easily be deadly.



I could write a long essay on why Cirrus training is crappy and use plenty of first hand stories. This guy was taught to hot start the airplane with the throttle wide open so the engine screams to life right to 2000rpm, he was taught to climb right at Vx, lean aggressively in the climb, just keep the cylinder head temps below 450* (anything above 380* is bad IMO), and to fly final, to the numbers at 90kts (ask Boni about the '03 SR22 he saw float halfway down the runway at GED while he was there). I have not even gotten past the most basic of airmanship yet, there was still a lot of instrument flying that he was taught very poorly, and the ADM he was taught was horrendous.

Alex.

Sounds like you just had a bad one Alex as he is not following the POH procedures. I will ask Boni about that. Ask Boni what he thinks about chute deployments as he as many many more hours in the airplane then I do.

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

What is the theory behind Vx climbs?

Either

A: It's the first line that shows up on the airspeed tape, and the 100 hour TT Cirrus owner gives up on thinking once they get there.

Or

B: To get to the minimum parachute deployment altitude as quickly as possible. Cirrus wants you to be in a position to "pull early, pull often" as quickly as possible

 

[jynxyjoe]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

Either

A: It's the first line that shows up on the airspeed tape, and the 100 hour TT Cirrus owner gives up on thinking once they get there.

Or

B: To get to the minimum parachute deployment altitude as quickly as possible. Cirrus wants you to be in a position to "pull early, pull often" as quickly as possible

Thank you TFaudree.

Ohh, and in response to the response, not to you, *shiver*.

I wonder if (and can't wait till) the "pull early, pull often" thing lands cirrus in the same trouble it did with the "it's not certified for ice, but if you get in some it'll get you outa trouble".

(just for everyone reference, it will not get you out of trouble, that's why the ice crap on there FAILED icing cert.)

 

[t-cart]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

They did a great job of landing the airplane. Too bad they put themselves in that position in the first place. A windshield shatter on a Kingair is not an emergency item as long as you keep the thing pressurized at high altitudes. These pilots dumped the pressurization and the second pane shattered on them. If i recall these pilots were "self trained" and never went to formal training. If they had, they would have known how to deal with the situation.

Exactly right, i don't think they checked the oxygen before flight either.

 

[RynoB]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

What is the theory behind Vx climbs?

I read one article (can't remember the magazine) that pushed for Vx climbs in single engine aircraft. The idea is that you gain the most altitude while in the vicinity of the airport in case of an engine failure.

I personally don't think the altitude difference would be all that great in that short of time while flying most light singles.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

I read one article (can't remember the magazine) that pushed for Vx climbs in single engine aircraft. The idea is that you gain the most altitude while in the vicinity of the airport in case of an engine failure.

I personally don't think the altitude difference would be all that great in that short of time while flying most light singles.

Yeah I guess I could see that a little... you are gonna need 500-800 in any single to get it turned around to the same runway. Why not get there as fast as humanly possible with Vy?

God, is landing straight ahead with minimal turns really that damn hard and unsafe?