Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past dest.

[jhugz]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

Let me rephrase it then. Not every emergency is a CAPs pull. I never said that every emergency is a CAPs pull. Sometimes it is not in you best interest to pull the chute. For example a Engine Fire in Range of an airport is an example of a neg chute pull. A Vne decent to the runway is your best bet. However If not over a runway I am using a Vne decent to get to about 1000' AGL and pulling the chute after bleeding the AS back to maxium chute deployment speed. During the decent (under the chute) I am going to do my best to keep the fire behind the firewall with my extinguisher since I no longer need to fly the airplane and then run the appropriate checklists. I have stated the statistics before but I guess I need to do it again.

There has been 48 fatal accidents in Cirri from 2001 to 2009:

Only 3 pulls have been associated with these fatalities.

Only 1 of the three was a legit equip malfunction which was later AD'ed.

Up to 2007 (don't have the numbers afterwards there has been 14 chute pulls with 12 being a success and 28 people owe there life to the system.)

A chute pull is very very survivable and your best option in a Cirri when you tank an engine not over an airport. Take it or leave it...I am throwing numbers at people and they are just bouncing off. I'm pulling the chute you do whatever you want.

 

[WacoFan]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

This is actually a pretty good discussion (for the rubber-pants, plastic airplane set). I am really interested in the psychology behind the chute-pull...why some don't pull the chute when they should, and why others may pull the chute when they shouldn't.

On a broader level, does the mere existence of the chute give pilots a sense of security/confidence that their skills alone wouldn't give them...and thus allows them to make poor decisions in terms of what and when to fly? I wonder how many think, "Gee, I probably am not skilled enough to go into this situation...but I have a chute, so I'm all good" and then they find themselves in a bad spot and either can't get a chute pull in time, or lose control of the airplane and are not within the chute pull envelope?

 

[jynxyjoe]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

I remember one crash in Colorado with a cirrus, it flew into the known ice, the iceing crap on the plane of course didn't work and the chute wouldn't deploy because it was iced over. Of course that was years back, it may not have deployed correctly because the guy was hurtling to his death past the chute speed.

 

[jhugz]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

This is actually a pretty good discussion (for the rubber-pants, plastic airplane set). I am really interested in the psychology behind the chute-pull...why some don't pull the chute when they should, and why others may pull the chute when they shouldn't.

On a broader level, does the mere existence of the chute give pilots a sense of security/confidence that their skills alone wouldn't give them...and thus allows them to make poor decisions in terms of what and when to fly? I wonder how many think, "Gee, I probably am not skilled enough to go into this situation...but I have a chute, so I'm all good" and then they find themselves in a bad spot and either can't get a chute pull in time, or lose control of the airplane and are not within the chute pull envelope?

Waco,

I totally agree as to the discussion of pulling the chute or not pulling the chute. It is a very interesting topic and if asked a couple weeks ago about CAPs pulls I did and probably still would have the same opinion as everyone else on this thread. There still are a lot of fatalities and accidents that could have been avoided with a proper chute pull. I really feel that the tendency is like most on this thread, they just don't want to pull the chute whether it be due to MX, insurance Cost, pride, or just lack of knowledge. This is the reason COPA and Cirrus are coining the phrase pull early, pull often. It has a shock and awe factor that is letting people know that the chute pull is the best option in a lot of emergency situations. Not all but a lot. Anywhoo gotta run and fly with a student.

 

[motoboy]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

I agree, and if in the AKR/CAK area I'll give you the hour.. PM me. Its at CAK now ready to depart...

DAMM this could of been my 5000 post...one to go![/QUOTE]

I live about 5 minutes from cak, and fly out of cak....can I take you up on that...

 

[jhugz]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

I remember one crash in Colorado with a cirrus, it flew into the known ice, the iceing crap on the plane of course didn't work and the chute wouldn't deploy because it was iced over. Of course that was years back, it may not have deployed correctly because the guy was hurtling to his death past the chute speed.

I'll see if I can find the info on the crash. If it is older aircraft it obviously isn't FIKI certified so basically the dude is a moron if he flew into know ice.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

I'll see if I can find the info on the crash. If it is older aircraft it obviously isn't FIKI certified so basically the dude is a moron if he flew into know ice.

Would have been the 05-06 time frame

 

[roundout]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

I'll see if I can find the info on the crash. If it is older aircraft it obviously isn't FIKI certified so basically the dude is a moron if he flew into know ice.

Many, many accidents boil down to pilot error. There are always other causal factors. One causal factor is that Cirrus Corporate makes it pretty clear that their pilots will take the airplane up if it's 200 and a 1/2, temperature be damned. I have seen them do it and seen their sales, demonstration, and flight department pilots do it. When they got Synthetic Vision on G1000 (after many other OEMs, I might add), I saw one of their guys take off in to 100 and 1/4 one day out of ADS.

There is nothing wrong with the airplane. There's a lot wrong with the corporate culture that encourages pilots to take foolish risks.

 

[CK]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

Look, no one is arguing that the chute will kill you. I agree that you probally will not die after pulling the chute. However it will almost certainly injure you. The better question is whether you have a higher chance of getting injured pulling the chute or making a landing a field. I will argue that you run a higher risk of being injured in a chute landing than a forced landing a field. Spinal injuries are no joke and take a very long time to heal, and most never do heal. The worst you have to worry about landing a field is the seatbelt hurting your shoulder.

I remember one crash in Colorado with a cirrus, it flew into the known ice, the iceing crap on the plane of course didn't work and the chute wouldn't deploy because it was iced over. Of course that was years back, it may not have deployed correctly because the guy was hurtling to his death past the chute speed.

That was near Reno, NV. The chute opened, the "landed" on the top of a mountain and the wind dragged them 2 miles, killing both occupants. I'll look it up on the NTSB site.

Edit: Here is the one I was thinking of, the chute deployed itself when it crashed and pulled the airplane down the mountain.

http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060925X01387&key=1

Here is the one in Reno I confused it with. He deployed the chute too fast and it ripped off.

http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050222X00211&key=1

Alex.

 

[SteveC]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

Look, no one is arguing that the chute will kill you. I agree that you probally will not die after pulling the chute. However it will almost certainly injure you. The better question is whether you have a higher chance of getting injured pulling the chute or making a landing a field. I will argue that you run a higher risk of being injured in a chute landing than a forced landing a field. Spinal injuries are no joke and take a very long time to heal, and most never do heal. The worst you have to worry about landing a field is the seatbelt hurting your shoulder.

I agree that this is the crux of the discussion, but I'm not sure I'd agree with your assertion that it's safer going without the chute unless I see some data or expert analysis to corroborate. Out of all of the Cirri chute pulls have there been any reports of spinal cord injuries? What are the injury types and severity associated with landing under the chute? Where does your 1800 fpm data come from, and does it really apply to this scenario? Does it take into account the deceleration afforded by the gear, airframe, seat structures, etc?

I just have a hard time seeing coming down under canopy being more hazardous than landing in some field with unknown surface conditions.

 

[USMCmech]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

Look, no one is arguing that the chute will kill you. I agree that you probally will not die after pulling the chute. However it will almost certainly injure you. The better question is whether you have a higher chance of getting injured pulling the chute or making a landing a field. I will argue that you run a higher risk of being injured in a chute landing than a forced landing a field.

I view the CAPS chute in the same way I would an ejection seat. Both are likely to seriously injure me, but if I'm ever completely out of options I'll dance with that devil.

The vast majority of Cirrus accidents have nothing to do with the airplane (same can be said for Bonanzas, 310s, you name it), it has to do with the nut in the left seat. The airplane does tend to attract a certain kind of pilot (wealthy, sucessful, tech savy, low time, men) who are most prone to making poor decisions in the air. This type of pilot can get in trouble when technology and training don't cover something.

That said, I have meet plenty of Cirus pilots who are very safety concious, and I would fly with any time.

 

[wjmiller3]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

I could write a long essay on why Cirrus training is crappy and use plenty of first hand stories. This guy was taught to hot start the airplane with the throttle wide open so the engine screams to life right to 2000rpm, he was taught to climb right at Vx, lean aggressively in the climb, just keep the cylinder head temps below 450* (anything above 380* is bad IMO), and to fly final, to the numbers at 90kts (ask Boni about the '03 SR22 he saw float halfway down the runway at GED while he was there). I have not even gotten past the most basic of airmanship yet, there was still a lot of instrument flying that he was taught very poorly, and the ADM he was taught was horrendous.

Alex.

After flying dozens of 22's over the last year or so, I have had several tempermental planes that the throttle wide open is how you have to begin the hot start process. You start wide open and simutainiously start walking back the throttle and turning the ignition. Granted I never let rev up like you described, always keeping it @1000rpm. And 380 is what Cirrus teaches for CHT's. As far as the instrument and the ADM, Cirrus does not teach that, they only teach airframe transition, so that will have to be blamed on someone else.

Sorry if I take it a little personally, but I do since I teach the courses. And when someone says the training is "crappy", they just threw me under the bus. Its one thing to say a particular instructor is crappy, thats fine, but dont lump everybody in. Thats like saying everybody that flies a citation is racist, just because the grandmaster of the KKK flies one.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

Edit: Here is the one I was thinking of, the chute deployed itself when it crashed and pulled the airplane down the mountain.

http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060925X01387&key=1

Alright, to be clear. Flew into icing conditions, didn't deploy on the way to slamming into mountain. Afterward "ground impact deployment of the parachute recovery system".

It's below freezing at altitude and you decide to fly into IFR conditions? Bonus points for not getting a brief. Makes me wonder why you'd do something like that? Anyway, this isn't the crash I was thinking of. This one didn't have the psuedo ice crap on it. Amazing how the years will blend obscure facts together.

 

[CK]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

As far as the instrument and the ADM, Cirrus does not teach that, they only teach airframe transition, so that will have to be blamed on someone else.

Now when you say they do airframe transtion only, does that mean you do not do any instrument training at all? I was under the impression that instrument flying was a major focus.

And every instructor teaches ADM, even if it is indirectly. If you take a brand new instrument pilot who has 0 actual instrument time, and teach him that with his new glass panel aircraft he can fly an ILS to 200' in the fog, you are teaching poor ADM. When you take a new instrument pilot, put him a non known ice Cirrus, and fly three legs in a snow storm, under an icing airment, in an area with every aircraft reporting ice, you are teaching poor ADM.

Sorry if I take it a little personally, but I do since I teach the courses. And when someone says the training is "crappy", they just threw me under the bus. Its one thing to say a particular instructor is crappy, thats fine, but dont lump everybody in. Thats like saying everybody that flies a citation is racist, just because the grandmaster of the KKK flies one.

All I said was that I could write an essay about Cirrus having "crappy" (I'll admit that was a poor word to use) instruction and use numerous spefic examples. I am sure if I tried hard enough I could also write an essay about Cirrus having wonderful instruction. It was not meant to be a personal attack on any spefic individual. I do know of a few very good Cirrus instructors.

Alex.

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

I'd even ride in Tracey's...if I ever make it up that way.

First: it's Tracy
Second: come up and I will get you stick time in my bird.
Third: If I come to you can I get stick time in your bird?

I agree, and if in the AKR/CAK area I'll give you the hour.. PM me. Its at CAK now ready to depart...

DAMM this could of been my 5000 post...one to go!

I live about 5 minutes from cak, and fly out of cak....can I take you up on that...

PM me and lets see what we can do. I live about 10 from CAK/AKR (inbetween). I'll get you up in it. A few other JC'rs have lived to tell a tail or two. One JC'r even help me break it one day....I wonder if he logged it that way??? (We lost an ALT)

 

[wjmiller3]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

Now when you say they do airframe transtion only, does that mean you do not do any instrument training at all? I was under the impression that instrument flying was a major focus.


Alex.

No focus at all on instrument training, what is done is learning to use the tools in the plane during instrument flight. Most of the training time is spent on system and avionics failures. We will teach instument profiles and such that are plane specific, but no basic instrument instruction.

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

No focus at all on instrument training, what is done is learning to use the tools in the plane during instrument flight. Most of the training time is spent on system and avionics failures. We will teach instument profiles and such that are plane specific, but no basic instrument instruction.

I actually requested a Factory Cirrus CSIP (not the local one) to complete my training. I was NOT comfortable flying IFR in it even though I had been signed off for insurance. The factory had to come down anyway due to a few other issues related to the bird when I got it. I'll stop there or I will get upset over all that again.....
breath......breath.....breath.....

 

[jhugz]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

When someone buys a Cirrus they get transitioned to the airplane; avionics, Systems, Profiles, Normal & Emergency Procedures. It is not an instrument rating, nor is it a crash course in ADM. When pilot's get into these airplanes if they don't feel comfortable flying in the clouds or making good decisions around weather they need to pick up a CSIP or any instructor for that matter and learn to deal with these situations. It is not Cirrus' fault that the owners of their airplanes get themselves killed due to poor ADM or getting in over their head. ADM should be glued into a pilot's head from day one, not when they buy a airplane that is much more complex then a skyhawk. Pilot's get themselves into bad situations in ice or weather in Cirri not because of CSIP instructors not doing their job, but because of instructors before the CSIP instructor not doing their job. Instructor's not talking about high altitude ops or inflight weather due to these skyhawks of the flight line not really having to deal with these types of situations. If the foundation is not in place, then these CSIP's doing the transitions have their hands full.

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

It is not Cirrus' fault that the owners of their airplanes get themselves killed due to poor ADM or getting in over their head.

It is Cirrus' fault for advertising to the crowd that has the money to buy an airplane but doesn't have the experience to get into the left seat of a CitationJet or VLJ. Cirrus knows this and directs their advertising accordingly. Have you seen the Cirrus ads in the Elite Traveler magazine? They're sickening.

 

[jhugz]

Re: Pilot dies as single-engine plane flies 300 miles past d

It is Cirrus' fault for advertising to the crowd that has the money to buy an airplane but doesn't have the experience to get into a CitationJet or VLJ. Naturally, that crowd will flock to the Cirrus. Have you seen the Cirrus ads in the Elite Traveler magazine? They're sickening.

Let's wait and see what happens when the Jet comes out and they start transitioning them into it before we start knocking it. I will be the first to call shenanigans if the transition to a jet is a joke.